ShVAK derangement syndrome goes all the way back to the old forums. This some the remnants of the old Loofah cope when FIT rounds were changed so that fragments actually did some damage 4+ years ago.
This is what damage for them looked like before then.
(your video is missing btw) god forbid red team’s cannons actually do damage
I am also vindicated yet again
I in fact, want this to be the case, and it would be exciting if this was the case. I want the structural integrity of an aircraft to become favorably strong enough that you can’t just snap a plane’s wing off with a single stray hit. This would make the game outright better and punish players for solely relying on HE to win.
Cannons were on planes, for a huge reason, space efficiency reasons. Initially, it was assumed you can just pack a bunch of explosives and blow planes to pieces. Germany learned that didn’t work until you made it BIG, Britain learned that didn’t work and the U.S. learned that this didn’t work.
Until you had an ample volume of fire to actually make it work. Which is why when the U.S—specifically the Navy—added cannons to aircraft. They stuck with 4 because this provided the ample volume of fire needed, and the high explosive ammunition had enough incendiary filler that it provided high fire chances from single shots unlike German HE mineshells. Same reasons why they moved onto incendiary ammunition.
Guns with HE filler in-game get rewarded an exorbitantly large amount of damage for single shots, whilst also being very light and nimble for the type of gameplay that’s expected.
20mm cannon fire should damage the flight characteristics of an aircraft. But being able to down bombers with just a few hits shouldn’t be a probable cause. That’s sheer insanity.
In contrast with .50s. their flame chances are heavy dice rolls that underperform.
And spars can shield fuel tanks by allowing the round to simply ghost through.
So you have .50s underperforming in most regards for it’s damage and their only saving grace is that they can at least break spars if you have enough hit. So you loop back again for diceroll damage that makes aircraft damage like this occur
These were all good passes with the Bf-110 literally taking a full on burst and just eating it.
It’s understandable to gamify things. But making it where it leans so far in one direction is not the right way to push the game forward.
This is just your sheer biases at this point for hating U.S. aircraft.
Except this isn’t really true.
US aircraft gun development was concentrated on a .60 caliber hyper velocity until well after the war. That was considered the “ideal” even after GUNVAL report that is commonly cited by Kiwi.
Missing the point. Look at the F4U-1C. The U.S. put four on the aircraft because they were very aware that volume of fire was important. While they were wanting to go for .60 caliber. Aircraft that used 20mm almost always carried 4 cannons due to volume of fire concerns. Some of the exceptions were aircraft like F6F-5N but that required changes to the airframe to fit it.
Look at how many F4U-1C with quad cannon armaments were used and then compare to how many .50 caliber armed Corsairs or Hellcats there were.
USN doesn’t really standardize on 20mm until very late or even after the war. USAF is even slower to standardize on it considering outside of a few F-86s they pretty much universally use .50 caliber in Korean war as well.
Even the post-war Yak-9P uses the 2x Berezin + 1 20mm ShVAK arrangement. Korean War era La-11 uses 3x23mm on dual stage trigger where first stage only uses 1 gun.
You’re not getting what I’m heading at. I’m talking about needing 4 eggs to make waffles and you’re telling me “Well, actually, they mostly made pancakes” I’m aware, but I’m talking about the waffles.
What I’m getting at is that the U.S. was aware they needed around four 20mm cannons to get enough volume of fire. They would generally go the 4 20mm cannon route when they could.
It’s not really tied to volume of fire and more about just not having different ballistics. Look at direction US actually moved; i.e more complicated and accurate gun sights.
So you’re literally proving my point? That thread was about the MG-151 being underpowered and I had even created videos to show that no… no it wasn’t. I’ve even included the MG-151 in my latest videos in regards to the damage they’re doing and it being a bit silly.
“Shvak’s being the main culprit”, tell me what exactly is wrong about that? The Shvak’s are punching even harder than the MG-151 right now which is all manner of wrong, we both know the Shvak was known as a weak cannon, even Eric Brown said that one of the negatives of the La-7 was its weak armament and I can pull multiple Russian quotes as well.
So to clarify, yes… the Shvak is easily the main culprit where overpowered guns are concerned.
To further clarify and to put to bed the notion that I’m some sort of German fanboy here’s two videos, one of the Shvak and one MG-151 gameplay, once again excuse the terrible aim.
The “weak” Shvak.
Me showing that MG-151’s don’t need a buff.
The MG-151 took more rounds to drop aircraft than the Shvak did is the funniest thing and no this is not me saying buff the MG-151… that’s also a bit stupid at times and could do with tuning. But if you can’t see the blatant problems here with cannon damage (especially the Shvak) there’s no point in further trying to persuade you. It punches like a high velocity 30mm. Once again count the rounds that dissected aircraft and that was in game against player opponents… not AI… and we both know it’s not the only round to be doing this in today’s War Thunder. It’s flat out stupid/indefensible.
Congratulations! You’re very much in the minority.
They kept using the MG151/15 even after the /20 version was made.
…Which is why they all switched to cannons and never went back?
This would reward players for standing in front of your guns, like Mr Loofah apparently loved to do in the past where he did what every good player tells you not to do, and stalled in front of someone to later turn the fight around.
We’re already gone over this flavor of cope in your thread.
Wow, very cool. Now let’s see paul allen’s gun passes.
A few aircraft in the USA tree are some of my favorites, this is just not true. .50cals especially I would love to put 4 of them in my A6M3 32, even if they had “just” mid war belts.
The cannons were bugged, MG151/20 and Shvak included, and not doing anywhere near the damage they had been doing the patch before. As said above this was one of the lowest points in damage for many cannons and it STILL wasn’t enough for you guys.
You’re right, they should be more like this!
Then we can all just stand in front of Yaks and Las just like the pilot reports said.
It’s a mystery how germany ever lost any aircraft when apparently you can just sit in front of them and take no damage.
So is this better? Is this realistic? This is what ShVAK damage looked like before FIT was buffed over 5 years ago and before ShVAK derangement syndrome took hold.
Because apparently “+0.5 sec of trigger time = no damage”.
Because you love this little picture so much, since I could do the same in a tank thread, post a volumetric moment and justify for all shells to be +30k Pen at 10km because it would just brute force the armor and screw over any nations focused on decent armor.
This is what the current system does, so much concentrated damage you end up with cases like this, because now pilots die from a AoA effect, a simple distance check, looks like even the current system screws you over when you “outskill” you opponent via pure mechanical reflex!!
Maybe because IT DOES make a difference and you simply deny it.
Because oneshots will only happen if you actually nail a pilot or cut tail control, and not via amputation of airframes.
Because Russian aircrafts, were a lot and super tuned to low altitude and low cost, which before missiles means the enemy was forced to come to low altitude and gun it down and in those altitudes Russian aircraft simply glued to their asses. And if one was lost it was replaced quickly, both pilot and plane.
You have also the veteran french units and the lend lease aircraft, which did affect the numbers, you can also add german planes were split on various front while USSR simply had to move west and maybe keep an eye out for Japan.
Speaking of Japan, since armor is a “sidegrade” in your eyes, why did the zero recieve a reputation for not having any armor? Because currently a Zero and an armored plane like J7W1 or basically any army plane past the Ki-43 last the same, which I can also add the P-47 is as easy to shoot down as an unarmored biplane currently if you equip 1 20mm.
gameplay becomes better! No, it’s called dumbing down gameplay and punishing player who look for info.
Because sadly I can’t remove the dead weight that is armor currently and I can’t magically make all ballistics and firerates the same because I need documents and reports, which only say “firerate (current) and ballistics (current)”
Because US war time propaganda and largely because the post-war narrative is just an uncritical repetition of it.
What? Even at their peak, gunners wouldn’t shoot down players.
You’re not getting the point. I’m saying the damage was more or less OK compared to what others were saying, if anything still too powerful. I’m saying the complete opposite of what you’re implying.
They should be somewhere in the middle. The Shvak was a weak cannon round, it should therefor be weaker than the other cannon rounds. Asking for the removal of tails getting removed instantly and wings doing the same isn’t us saying they should do zero damage and neither should aircraft be able to shrug the rounds off with zero affect to the flight model, something which you’ve also been trying to imply we’ve been saying/wanting.
Tell that to the Germans that fought against the Yak-3 and the La-5 which earned the Germans respect when it showed up. The Russians shot the Germans down with far worse accuracy and conditions than our fat arses sitting on a comfy chair using stabilised gunnery and mouse aim.
Come on mate you’re better than this.
In short, yes.
To me that just looks like poor hit connection/lag plus he misses quite a lot at the start. Even so that’s closer to reality than what we have now. Today that first hit would’ve magically chopped that tail clean off. Notice as well how the P-38 was critically hit with the first salvo (suffers damage of elevator) and the Yak then easily shoots it down. It’s not perfect but is it more realistic than what we have now? Absolutely.
Today that first tap on the tail would’ve ripped it clean off and you know that for a fact.
No it’s because they had no real armour and folded because of it compared to western designs. No aircraft was invincible and a bullet in the right place will end anything in the air but the Japanese due to their extreme requirements sacrificed too much in regards to protection.
Sakai himself stated when attacking “Pug” Southerland’s Wildcat that it was marvellous to him how it could withstand so much punishment and keep flying.
“I had full confidence in my ability to destroy the Grumman and decided to finish off the enemy fighter with only my 7.7 mm machine guns. I turned the 20 mm cannon switch to the ‘off’ position and closed in. For some strange reason, even after I had poured about five or six hundred rounds of ammunition directly into the Grumman, the airplane did not fall, but kept on flying. I thought this very odd — it had never happened before — and closed the distance between the two airplanes until I could almost reach out and touch the Grumman. To my surprise, the Grumman’s rudder and tail were torn to shreds, looking like an old torn piece of rag. With his plane in such condition, no wonder the pilot was unable to continue fighting! A Zero which had taken that many bullets would have been a ball of fire by now.”
Meanwhile in War Thunder: THUNK Tail cut loose.
Did you forget the video of the 190 D just eating a dozen cannon shells and flying off perfectly fine?
It is a clear example of what shvak damage used to be. You can get the same from the P-38 video but it’s not as funny since he’s going faster and the previous hit clouds go out of frame.
Funny that you mention volumetric because in the past using shvak was as if ALL your tank shells hit a spot where volumetric armor made it so it was 400mm+.
And I’m the odd one out for saying you should bring AP? lol
At least AP would go through the canopy and hit the pilot.
Actually 10 might not be enough since I want one or two in a lot of planes
15mm Air belt is HEF-T not whatever you’re talking about
No I would deadass switch a LOT of my planes’ guns with MG151/15s if I could. I hit anywhere near the center and the pilot dies in like 3 hits.
The MG151/15 fires at 700 rpm or 11.(6) shells per second, to fire 3 shells that’s ~0.25s. A quarter of a second with just one gun and I can kill ANYTHING.
“Reputation” is more often wrong than not. It had much greater issues elsewhere, some fixable and some not.
Ki-43 also got armor plating behind the pilot. Some took it off.
Two cannons hit his wing at the same time, with HE, and all I got out of it was a flap and some unnoticeable drag.
Righ, because being able to ignore someone shooting you because you know their guns won’t do anything makes for great gameplay.
How is that different from this:
Even at their worst and most unpopular, you think the damage should go even lower.
No, that is exactly what you want, and exactly why this thread was created.
Okay, so Shvaks should do good damage then! German fighters have plenty of armor. Like KillaKiwi said some time ago, “there is nothing to hit behind the armor”. Even the small 109 has a lot of armor protecting the fuel tank, even from the sides in some models.
And in WT, you are simply counted as dead when this is the case.
Once again this is nonsense.
The armor plating on most Allied fighters was limited to pilot protection. Japanese planes also adopted armor plating and bulletproof glass throughout the war as well.
The only thing the Japanese were slow to adopt were self-sealing fuel tanks and this is largely due to rubber shortages and due to range requirements.
This is a neat anecdote. I can find instances of Japanese aces saying that their planes were twice as good as the American ones. What does it prove?
Neal Kearbys P-47, one of America’s top aces, was shot down by a Ki-43 Oscar with it’s piddly two machine guns. In fact the P-47s record in New Guinea against the Oscar is far exaggerated.
Japanese planes used armor to protect the pilots in the same way that every other country did and adopted armor plating at the same rate.
You mean the one where not even fragmentation did damage? from practically prehistoric times?
Which I said I wanted to avoid?
Ok so let’s rework via pushing fragmentation that also makes stuff like armor plates and thus AP rounds more relevant outside of 8 planes from +20 which use 7.7mm above rank I
Or you know, try AP instead of loading a full FI-T load? try other belts? try to plan around said weakness, because Soviet aircraft were given lower BRs to allow their excellent performance to carry them.
AP flies in a straight line dumbass, and now you just kill the enemy on the merge.
20mm IT can penetrate thin armor and more importantly the skin of aircraft.
You can, it’s called “tracer belts” for the mg151/20, but you won’t because you practially lie to yourself.
mg151/20 also fires at 700RPM
Still 90% of army planes have armor which will never come into play? Any answers to that or do just leave it to float there and hope I never serve it a second time?
So then why did Zeros try to finally armor up near the end? if armor wasn’t needed?
Keep you advantage, or did you drop low early and are being punished for it?
Is that what you want, screw every factor but mechanical skill?
No one will ignore it, this is your stupid little prediction you made up.
Want to see a plane which it’s armor actually is relevant because of it’s low BR?
TBF-1C Yet I only see how their death are delayed.
Which is what armor does, an extra layer, which you don’t want, since you randomly posted this because armor can’t be relevant.
Because this is what it currently looks like, team spotting and jacked up cannon damage just leaves “Don’t be close”, “don’t be hit” and “don’t die”.
But I suppose you doing basic ballistic prediction for a projectile has to rewarded with a 90% chance of a kill no matter what!
First of all - I agree that zero should be armored and etc (about dialogue about this text)
But need to note different thing - “reputation” here is really no more than stereotypes.
Of course most of zeroes wasn’t armed but:
since december 1943 A6M5 got its automatic fuel tank fire extinguisher system, system which almost never described in foreign literature about Zero. Ironically that this system was attached to many models of Japanese planes but authors never saw it and of course because of that people don’t know about this system at all (like situation where Greg in video about J2M3 called fuel tank automatic fire extinguisher controller as “engine fire extinguisher” what is just wrong)
same with armor. Around 15-20% of Zeroes was A6M5 Hei, A6M7 variants which had armor but people still think Zero never had armor
Even more, Zero has reputation as “wooden plane” though its construction is full-metal
So “reputation” unfortunately don’t really a mark about vehicle especially if it is something what got huge number of myths.
