From the front and below 20° horrizontal and vertical.
Meaning under different circumstances the chances would be drastically lower since fuel, engine and pilot might not be exposed as much.
What’s interesting is that 20mm HEI has a higher chance to take out the engine of a P-47 with a B Kill than even the 30mm Mineshell, while the 30mm has a huge likelyhood of knocking the P-47 out due to structural damage. The 37mm HE is also much more likely to knock out the engine.
So it’s clear that fragmentation shells have a high likelyhood to cause oil leaks in radiators, oil-tanks and lines and such. Taking out the plane in the long run, due to engine damage.
So it can be said, while HEI shell have a good chance to knock out a plane due to critical damage of any component. Mineshells are best at dealing structural damage, which shouldn’t be really suprising.
It’s also not suprising that Germany still used HEI-T shells in conjunction with Mineshells before they replaced them with Inc-T. Sometimes you don’t need structural damage to bring down the plane.
The whole idea of Mineshells is to deal the most damage to the structure of the plane since it makes up the largest part of the aircraft, which as we can see from the report is only one reason a plane can get shot down.
So, because neither 20mm HE nor AP (or Inc) is the ideal shell under any situation. Using both would result in a higher likelyhood to take out planes then relying on one shell alone.
Since neither would hitting a wing or tail with AP result in critical damage, nor would HEI by simply hitting some structure that isn’t affected by shell fragments.
The fuze are triggered on impact but the detonation charge is either instantaneous-> Duplexkapsel
or delayed → VC and VD fuzes.
The Duplexkapsel was used by early Mineshells, late Mineshells set-up for ground attack (non-self destroying) as well as the FI-T shell.
The delay charge was used to increase the destructive power of Mineshells by moving the blast inside the airframe. The pressure then blows large chunks out it, instead of wasting destructive power on the surface of the plane.
It doesn’t really make sense for an explosive shell that relies on fragmentation, to explode inside the plane, since more shrapnel passes through the planes when the shell explodes on impact.
Hence why every other explosive shell detonates on impact without only minimal delay.
IMO it almost always makes sense to explode at least a bit inside, because generally more things worthwhile are inside aircraft, and why would exploding outside be any better than exploding 10cm into the plane? Maybe a bit less damage on the outer panel of the wing, but more damage to the internak structure and in case of wings - on the exit.
But I digress, right now in game every 20mm shell has some hefty delay. Are you sugesting this is wrong?
@Smin1080p as I’ve stated before:
-this post is not about asking for old system to return
-it’s not to imply that old system was better
I just wanted to point out that in my opinion the fix was over-done and right now guns do too much damage.
I am not denying it can be to people’s liking - it does not make it realistic regardless
no mechanical/chemical fuze is instantaneous. And even if it was, the explosive used is not burning at infinitely high speed so of course round will travel a little bit before it goes boom
It probably never actually happened during WW2, but I wonder if the HE rounds from a MG151/20 would actually explode upon impact on the cloth skin of a Fairey Swordfish. I know the Bismark’s AA had issues, but I assume some/all of the guns used in that attack were larger.
That then also presents some possiblities for the future of these weapons. What if the round just punched straight through instead of exploding and how different “armor” types would interact with these rounds. I think this is more the issue than the rounds themselves these days
In my opinion, the biggest issue now with cannon damage is not the cannons themselves (first time in a long time they feel fun again), but instead the limited nature of the damage model.
We have seen in this thread and in others, pictures of aircraft with large holes in their wings and fuselage but have landed succesfully. I think the greatest issue now, is that damage is being magnified over a far greater area that it should be, resulting in lethal damage and not just severe damage.
Is there any plans in the works for enhancing the damage model for aircraft, which to the best of my knowledge hasn’t been radically changed/overhauled in years?
This could include things like smaller segments for aircraft, such as the dividing the wing into multiple sections, and the same for the fuselage. Along with the possibility of modelling holes in the airframe, and not just a large section turning black. The likelyhood of cannon fire ripping an entire wing off is small, but instead that wing could be massively damaged.
lets make it simple so you can understand what i mean
Realshatter rn: 100% DMG
My change: Reduce by 20% DMG
Realshatter after my changes: 80% DMG
Realshatter before the the change a few days ago: 0 DMG
We already have detailed information about such shells against a P-47.
10 random hits have a 50% chance to bring down a P-47 when shot at an angle that allows the shell to hit pretty much any critical part of the airplane, meaning Pilot, Engine, Fuel Tanks and structure.
An attack from behind would result in much lower likelyhood, since other than the structure the other components have less chance of being hit.
That’s what cannons do in the game right now:
I counted two 20mm HEFI-T hits. Thats two 115g shells with 10g TNT equivalent each, brining down a large 2 engined bomber due to the leathal structural damage, which is complete bullshit.
A German 37mm HE with less explosive than the US M54 HE will rip the wing in one shot, even though the US 37mm HE had a mere 8% chance to bring down a P-47 due to structural damage, compared to the 30mm Mineshell with 23%.
There’s a reason why the Luftwaffes FlaK units decided to adopt a 37mm Mineshell.
You know the stories about Mineshells entering 2/3 before exploding?
That’s probably the case with any impact fuzed HE. Even when the fuze is triggered on impact, the detonation is probably delayed enough for the shell to travel a few cm.
The fact that Germany specifically produced delay actions that delayed the shell even at greater range, where the impact velocity of Mineshells was maybe 1/2 than closer ranges, shows that regular impact fuzes would detonate the shell almost immediately after impact.
In my opinion “too much damage” is much, much better than too little. Who enjoys getting sparks, hits and nonimpactful crits all the time, despite having good accuracy? One-shotting people in reversals n stuff is a thousand times more satisfying. Bad guns often cause undeserved wins in tournaments as well, sometimes even in random battles. This was probably the only great change in the game for years which actually favours skilled players.
It makes no fun as it is now. Everything just desintegrates with one hit. There’s almost no dogfight anymore. Just dong, your wing snapps off.
This change was meh. Even Hispanos are op now. Whose idea was it that simple fragmentation is powerful enough to snap wing spars and airf frames ? One hit and the whole plane turns black, holy.
All this doesn’t match up with rl guncam footage anymore.
I dont know how you lose a dogfight to a bomber or a ground vehicle but sure
You made a mistake and got punished for it, next time do better instead of complaining about guns doing what they’re supposed to do
in sim I am flying with full realistic control vs a guy in a bomber who have autopilot and pixel-perfect aim with mouse spamming cannon rounds that literally require 1 hit to kill me.
It’s not even close to being fair fight.
My point is, you don’t even have to be in dogfight to get hit by 20mm cannon round.
You don’t even have to make mistake to get hit by 20mm cannon round.
but most importantly: IT DOES NOT MATTER - I want game to be more realistic and that’s what this post is all about.
Bombers being easy-mode in terms of gunnery is not really relevant to cannons doing damage though
And if you really want realistic damage or whatever go play DCS or IL-2
From my experience. Fighting bombers is a lot easier/more fun now. Fighting Ju-288C in my Plagis Spitfire would take dumping my entire ammo supply just for the chance of getting a kill. It now takes only 20% ish of my ammo to get a kill on a bomber. The difference is massive, and in favour of the fighter.
