Cannons doing too much damge

That’s literally what machine guns—especially the U.S.—specialized in. The whole point of M23 was to have a super powerful, super high velocity incendiary that would ensure your enemy caught fire.
Even germany began figuring at the end of the war they needed to swap to incendiary because blowing your enemy apart is really hard as you’re relying on physically breaking the plane or destabilizing their aerodynamics enough that they go down.

Like, you’re literally saying “I want their guns to stop being good at what they’re designed for.” At that point man it sounds unfair. I know what you’re getting at. You want low TTKs for fast paced gameplay. But if that’s what you want. Give incendiaries way higher fire chances and make them actually work because currently they’re in such a sorry state they don’t even penetrate the vehicle. At that point, everyone’s guns needs to be broken a bit.

And add in that suggestion for custom convergences so machine gun armed aircraft can have different convergences for a more even field of fire. The suggestion was accepted, so there shouldn’t be a problem with adding it in.

It was talked about in the book. It was stated to be very effective but had low velocities.

Literally a chart of it too.
image

The M1 incendiary was basically a complete upgrade over it. You can read in the bottom left corner where I posted the .30 cal M1 excerpt.
Mk VI went 2270 fps. U.S. M1 incendiary went 2950 fps whilst having more filler.

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Well, they were causing too many fires while 20mm cannon’s didn’t.
Since Gaijin, to this day, never implement incendiary content and they have frankly no clue about how they should work.

So 20mm cannons are stuck with literally the same incendiary chance as .50cals, which of course makes no sense.
Which now doesn’t matter since they just blow wings off.

The saddest part is that 30mm Incendiary were actually one shot kills against fuel tanks until Gaijin had the amazing idea to remove that feature and turn them into confetti shells instead, since in their eyes default ammo must suck.

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So once again we are not just advocating for a change to explosive damage and replacing it with incendiary damage. We are also advocating to reduce incendiary damage in conjunction with whatever massive damage nerf is done to explosive shells.

My point still stands. At this point might as well just entirely remove damage to aircraft and replace it with a large pool of hit points because any damage that actually causes your plane to die is just not realistic because we can find examples of planes surviving it in real life.

and the current situation we should just remove modules, 3 hearts and the 20mils remove those 3 in one swoop.

So what’s better? Well apparently they are the “90% chance for instakill” since people don’t know how to push for more than 1 shot opportunity, since the second one is too hard!

People can’t read 1 number from a statcard and apply common sense, they just see “20mm” next to a color and assume it should kill all forms of life.

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The current system is based feedback Gaijin received from the “realistic” implementation of real shatter as people in this thread have called it. It turns out it was widely unpopular.

Which said feedback also ended with aphe rework.

You have to consider Air battles are played by a lot of people who don’t like air battles.

A lot of tank players see it as a chore, if it could be made quicker by reducin ttk or simplify it so even they can hop on and do 1-2 headons and think they are good.

Ofc you have player who didn’t enjoy learnin a whole lot, aphe rework meant to learn module positions and aim better, they didn’t like it.

This cannon rework made it so you don’t need to read or learn to keep a good position, made it so 1 second in a good position = win.

A lot of the community doesn’t know what it wants. Sorry to sound like i’ve been bribed but that’s simply the truth. Some people are a little lack on the experience part and deny it.

People didn’t like trying to hold the superiority in a duel for more than 3 seconds.

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Thats just what Gaijin tells us.

Whats that feedback?
Some people complain that the guns are not working?

It’s not like they made a poll and asked to make explosive ammunition so effective that you don’t need any other types.

And I can also tell you that 99% of bomber players are not happy that 12.7mm and 20mm with 6g explosive are you going to shoot their tails off in a single pass.

Likewise players playing the Ju 87 or IL-2 won’t agree when a single Hispano hit rips their entire wing off.

So this whole „the community wants it that way“ argument is simply fabricated.

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Except it didn’t. I am still able to survive cannon fire but just at a lower rate than before and I don’t have instances where I can get hit by 5+ different planes and expect to survive.

People that played air battles and played them for enjoyment also didn’t like the change. The bug reports on HE damage were made by people that predominantly play Air RB and didn’t like seeing their cannons do insignificant damage in the form of sparks.

Practically every video that covered realshatter implementation made the same complaints; that adding real shatter reduced the damage of cannons. And these content creators were not tank centered content creators.

None of these guys are complaining about lower damage because they are tank players.

Even then, the community won’t vote in favour of balance, just in what benefits them the most
APHE shells are used by a crap ton of nations and other shell types are rarer, community saw the tank round they use the most could be nerfed, they voted no.

Mineshells and large caliber rounds are rarer than the 20mm frag round, people didn’t like their shells would behave differently from others, pushed for more structural damage.

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The main complain was that even the number the fragments could be as low 3.

A Reliability issue

Imagine I make a game and I add a shotgun, it uses a square pattern as to be as predictable as possible.

One day I decide to make it more realistic by adding a random cone spread into it, sure some players may be alarmed as this can make damage move a little bit but it will still kill in 1-2 shots

But then I make it so that the amount of pellets is also random AND implement it so horribly it can make it so sometimes only 1 pellet comes out.

So instead of removing the last part I make the shotgun fire the rounds from the shotgun that uses slugs, now no matter how many rounds land your opponent will die, it only came at the cost of screwing over the slug shotgun

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Yes. The reliability of doing less damage than non-realshattered guns. The main complaint was the lack of meaningful damage associated with real-shatter.

Weird how buffing damage caused by realshatter guns has caused content creators to say that it is fixed now.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1u4vfqg/aircraft_damage_model_is_completely_broken_and/

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What a sad display 😣

I bet one or two 25mm AP rounds will also detach a tail.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/8qgMwCbCtto4

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Meanwhile in Sim.

I find it ironic that plywood bug will soon be like “of legal age”, with its newest iteration, plywood bug 2.0 being over 1 year old, and yet people are defending Real Sh*tter 3.0, because “it makes muh guns reliable”, why they completely ignore the problem of HE rounds phasing through Soviet props + Mosquito + some parts of Bf 109 K4/He-162 without exploding.
I mean, if “gun reliability” is so damn crucial, why is that problem being 100% ignored by every party excluding like 3 users maybe?

Yak-3U happily enjoys rounds phasing through wings - but that’s no problem.

Anyway, why is time to kill being sub 0,2s in a WW2 “plane and tonk” game such an absolute necessity?
Such times to kill are very rare in video games in general. They are fine when certain weapons do that, f.e. bolt action rifles. But insta-killing always come with downsides, while otherwise more convenient weapons, like SMGs, usually take a few rounds to kill and have inferior accuracy, to balance out their ability to just keep on firing.

That’s weapon balance and proper weapon design. But for some unknown reason WT is SO SPECIAL that planes have to die instantly.

I’m not even talking about realism (which also supports planes surviving some hits). I’m talking about pure “weapon balance” standpoint. Unlike many modern games, getting hit is HEAVILY detrimental long term, even if you survive.
You get slower, you turn worse, engine/coolant leaks are a problem.
Which should indicate insta-killing is not required. Yet here we are.
I just wonder, what makes our specific game so damn special, compared to WW2 flight sims, compared to WW2 shooters, modern FPS games etc. etc.

And also, why is WT community so happy with accepting that “well, Gaijin is not delivering proper aerodynamic damage”. This should be considered a huge problem, yet Yak-3U happily stall-fights after losing 1 wing (I think the wingroot was black, the orange part is the fuel tank, but I may be wrong) and wigntip of the other (yes, my aim sucks):

Do we really want to just accept “yup, we can’t have that”, even if executing this idea is neither complicated (based on what the game is already capable of) nor costly (because new aerodynamic damage may be based off current damage models and their impact on flight performance, it’s far from perfect, but it can work)?

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That was before Gaijin applied real shatter to it. Some rounds still use hitpower calcs and due to server desync you can have the explosion spawn way farther than it needed to be where you’re essentially only hit by the farthest reaching shrapnel.
Now, it’s super strong, and overperforming as well. It’s doing effectively over double it’s actual damage

Because it’s gaijin fixing the problem in the worst way possible.

Like when people complained about Stock shells for top-tier tanks how some vehicles got default APFSDS while others got stock HEAT. And so gaijin, instead of giving everyone stock APFSDS. Just forced everyone to use stock HEAT.

Similarly, when gaijin said they were going to add more modules for more accurate rendering of the internals of tanks. They decided that NATO turret baskets are somehow linked to the entire system instead of the hydraulic pump that controls the turret. So you have it where a literal empty box meant to hold .50 ammunition and Jolly Ranchers is now integral to the functioning of an Abrams.

What they should’ve done was just made the incendiary rounds in 20mm actually effective at causing fires.

“So hey, we made it where you can’t just rely on blowing people’s wings off all the time, to counteract this and make it realistic, you also have way higher chances to cause fires too.” It honestly feels like they purposely bait the community of this game by implementing a good change in the most broken way possible to steer the playerbase where they want.

To my knowledge Kiwi’s goal is to get the game to be near 1-to-1 in terms of damage modeling following the Optimum Caliber Program’s assignment of how damage works with “A” damage “B” damage “C” damage and finally “E” damage. The problem is that “B” damage is vague as that could be within literally seconds after that 5 minute timer or on the very end of that timer. “A” damage implies the plane will die within 5 minutes. Of which the researcher notes. That’s really hard to ascertain if a plane would go down within 5 minutes and found “B” damage to be more reliable as it’s basically within 2 hours. Ballistics Research laboratory Memorandum Report 437 supposedly offers much more detail on what counts as an A kill, B kill and so on but I can’t find it online and a FOIA might need to be done.

image

Another thing is that multiple hits to fuel tanks would exacerbate as what matters is how much fuel is feeding the fire. Which is why 20mm has a better ability of igniting the target, simply because the round is bigger.

Another thing to be aware of is the fuel-to-air mixture within the tank, because if it’s lean. You won’t have a fire; the tank will just straight up explode—and what do most players fly with? 30%


Handy little chart showing shots from above and behind and below and front.

My issue is that it can over complicate. Because this isn’t real life, and your life is not on the line. Having a Yak-9 chase you on fire for 3 minutes, would not be not fun. You could have a fuel leak in your wing, but because it was lean enough in your wing, the next shot literally fuel detonates your wing, blowing you up.

That’s literally what we’re doing in-game except. Lol. The only difference is that some guns don’t spit the HP damage required and fuel fires are rare.

What I see it as is this:

You have several rounds in the game, whose main job is to catch things on fire. They don’t work at all. They don’t even function like they should. So we got these options

  1. Turn every incendiary into a penetrating round that has it’s optimum fire chances, increase the fire chance of all incendiary rounds to have their realistic flame chances they would’ve had with the calculation provided in the Incendiary effectiveness paper. This would mean making some .30 cals actually be scary. M20 API-T would have a 40% chance instead of a 20% (M8 API would effectively be the same) M23 gets 60% fire chance, Berezin API would presumably get a higher fire chance, anything 20mm would at least be in the 75-80% range. British 7mm Incendiary would actually be viable up close if it penetrates. Nerf the damage of HE to more realistic level (real shatter 1.0 or close to it) to make up for the fact that now you don’t just have dead air in your belts and your API and incendiary rounds are now actually functional and if they impact the fuel tank, you’re basically lighting the fuel tank up regardless. Keep the simplified DMs we have now

  2. The above change, but completely rework Damage models and how fires start using a more advance system simulating fluid and vapor droplets within the aircraft relying much on the work of the Optimum Caliber Program and the associated studies around it.

  3. Leave every incendiary as a pseudo HE (basically how it is for machine gun incendiary rounds) then rework belts for some countries to use incendiary ammunition more then adjust the damage for some incendiary rounds so they are effective. This would basically be a buff to nations like the U.S. and Britain.

Having wet paper damage models mixed with HE cannons is a disaster meanwhile aircraft that rely on AP rounds are essentially rolling the dice on if they actually do anything or not and incendiary rounds literally have no thought in the game. That shouldn’t be a thing.

Except the “realism” advocates also say that the current fire chance of most guns is also too high. So no…reduced explosive damage would not be offset by increased incendiary chance. For “realism” you will just get worse damage across the board.

And who’s that? I’ve not seen anyone argue for reduced fire chances.