Well, basically the only survivable way of dealing with this piece of shit is to spray at distance while performing crazy dodges… Thing is, 50% accuracy is basically only achievable if someone refuses to take most shots or is some kind of WT genius. I can score 6-7 kills using Yak-3, but that’d because Shvak kills people with 1-3 shells if pairwe with a Berezin or 2.
I highly doubt on that 6 kill run I landed more than 40 shells on targets the rest were misses, remember I also used Berezins to get my kills ad I was left with 5 cannon shells.
While I know I can score a few kills with single clicks and land most of my shells, my average accuracy is probably below 20%, at 20% it would essentialy mean I score like 6 kills each time I fly Bf 109 and run out of ammo, as 40 shells on target + MGs is more than enough to do the job, actually out of every 10 shells landed, 4 are hitting a target that is done for anyway.
The point is, you’re greatly overstating accuracy of players.
500RPM as firerate and below average ammo pool, you can also add fuze sensitivity.
Which then would justify just fusing all ballistics, ammo pools and firerates too? Just like World of Warplanes!
Then make 20mils or even explosive 12.7mil /13mil /15mil not optimal for killing bombers and heavily armored aircraft, only fair isn’t it? And like in real life, not instant aircraft unmakers.
That’s why you are supposed to think which belt to take, that you didn’t consider taking at least 1 AP-I shell per belt is your fault and simply a bad play you made when you spawned.
The one aircraft that has a 20mil that has a remote chance to do that would be a mg151/20 armed aircraft vs a wooden frame, If he landed that shot that’s an incredible show of marksmanship on a wiener launcher that cuts the effective distance to fire down to 400-500m instead of 700-800.
You cannot have firepower? have a little more flight peformance
This is imho a mix of gunner manuals (=how and at which ranges B-17/24 gunners are allowed to fire) and irl ranges of (heavy) cannons. I mean there is a reason why B-29s got a 20 mm in the tail turret - and why the BK 5 Me 410s had this additional telescopic sight…
So whilst i agree why your general message (too much damage) i see this from two perspectives:
- WT is just a video game and gaijin is following the needs of the majority of their players - and “reality” is for gaijin just what fits in their economic goals
- The actual in game impact of those decisions.
Whilst the first point is obvious the second point has an impact on (prop) aircraft optimized to carry 30mm or more. They (most of them strike aircraft) become borderline useless in Air RB as a 20 or 23mm can be used with a similar effect.
Years ago there was a need to fly a 50 mm Me 410 in Air RB (before 2019) in order to avoid ticket defeats as even in 1 hour long matches there was no trace of one or two B-29s at +10 km and you needed to kill tanks or pillboxes whilst German & Italian fighters equipped with MG 151s could do nothing to them.
Today even MG 151 air target belt shells kill a pillbox…
If you are going 550km/h at sea level and the other dude is using air belt, you are basically 100% safe at 800m already, as even AP-I won’t get you.
EDIT: Ok, maybe 900m. But I generally do not get hit at 800m already.
What do you think of the damage shown in the first clip? Do you think that is realistic? Do you think that would be good for the game?
Maybe WarThunder should copy a more realistic flight simulator like IL-2?
Would this be good for the game @KillaKiwi ?
That’s the G8N though, it has some of the best guns on any defensive mounting. The average bomber is not armed like the G8N is.
Against a bomber? 50% accuracy against them is perfectly reasonable unless you’re shooting from long range or at a weird aspect, and most are shooting from directly behind. I’m not counting the worst players, like those who just hold the trigger down until something happens.
Neither matter against a bomber. They are flying in nice straight lines 99% of the time. Also, the Type 99s fire at ~500RPM as well and they have no problems.
They already aren’t optimal? In the Ki-43-1 I have to target an engine or at least a wing section specifically. That’s with two of the super evil explosive .50s, and against low tier bombers that tend to be rather fragile.
You mean this AP?
Yak-3U to 5.0!
Then you can watch as your Fw 190 A-8 cannot ever get its nose on target and he peppers you with pretty fireworks for the next five minutes. Such engaging gameplay!
No, I think I’ll pass actually.
No takesies backsies.
20mm:
30mm:
EDIT: Also IDK which 30mms you’re using, but Type 5 comparison does not look like that:
Order is Ho-5/Ho-155/Type 99-2/Type 5, and the last one is clearly winning
That’s a world that’s far away from the War Thunder reality.
Precise module hits? We just have to point our .50cals and we may rip someones wings, set them on fire, snipe their pilot or instantly kill their engine (maybe all of them at the same time).
The damage model itself has so many limitations that there’s no such thing as precise module hits.
What happens is that in WT when one gun becomes fun to play with and the other one has to cope about it, there’s no middle ground. Many people here prefer simply prefer rewarding gameplay and fun instead of a “realistic” lack of damage that will make many nations a pain in the ass to play with.
That’s not what made cannon damage strong at all. The players just want their guns not to be useless (being realistic or not).
You can say it 5000 times, you know who was the first one to disregard that every 20mil is different? Gaijin. They were the ones that put every cannon in a blender and gave them the same formula and frag coef. (realshatter)
Before realshatter we had a system that seemed to rely on TNT equiv more and it was working perfectly fine when they fixed the useless cannons and everything seemed to work. Around late 2021-2022.
What keeps MG151/20 below the rest atm is the drag changes they made - another ~half realistic feature nobody asked for. And for the sake of gameplay, I would buff it so it has atleast an average value like the Type 99 Mk 2 Cannon.
Common Loofah being wrong.gif
To judge the damage we would need to know where he actually hit. We can see the plane get hit around three times, and from I can tell they all hit the tail.
The Ki-84 is a late Japanese aircraft, self sealing fuel tanks and pilot armor.
It’s not much different than a Fw 190 in terms of punishment it can take.
Vs. a shell that makes 15-20cm holes against dural and that mainly damaged due to its fragmentation effect.
The 23mm that replaced it already made holes 10 times larger, while creating more effective fragments with more than twice the weight.
Spoiler
https://forum-en-cdn.warthunder.com/original/4X/3/2/6/3262d87f87094873ec40d44b1ee593c67d7992f9.jpeg
Feel like I already posted the exact same fact before.
Land a ShVAK 20mm near the pilot, the engine, radiators or fuel tanks and it’s going to damage them, but you can’t expect wonders by simply hitting a plane.
When a 20mm Mineshell blows a hole bigger than 15 ShVAK shells into a planes wing, why would you expect a wing to fall off when hitting 5 times or less?
Hit a vital component. You have fragmentation that hit in a wide area and 20mm kinetic rounds that can hit fuel tanks or engines on the other side of a wing.
It’s the ground battles equivalent of hitting a tank in the center where all crews are killed or hitting just the gunner and expecting the same result.
So broadly speaking you think the damage or complete lack of it in the clip is a good thing? Where fragments don’t actually do any carry on damage and where planes can just absorb constant punishment? And where damage is inconsistent?
IL-2s damage model and particular their implementation of various shells is a joke.
You can also see how it evolved in the last 10 years.
There were times when P-47 could take several 30mm hits and keep flying and even today you can see how a lot of things don’t make sense.
From what I know they don’t even model API rounds to this day.
yo be happy with the kills you get, do you want a peashooter or what???
Maybe vs some British bombers you can get to 50% with top 5% of WT players.
Vs properly armed bombers?
People are firing at long range, bombers are dodging. Average player lands maybe 20%, and that’s me being generous.
That’s why I usually see people firing like 60% of their ammo to MAYBE down a bomber.
Again, you are MASSIVELY overstating the ability of average player to aim.
The 30mm on Ki-84, which is NOT Type 5 my friend.
There is also MK108.
Both are VASTLY inferior to 20mm in everything.
Just like Soviet 23mm and “short” 37mm are pointless because Shvak exists.
And it is hilarious you deliberately chose a double-engined plane because it has on average higher module HP.
This is a result of MK108 hit on Yak-9K in actual gameplay:
30mm damage is all over the place. 20mm is also not perfectly reliable at 1-shotting people.
But 20mm has A LOT more ammo and is also a lighter weapon and usually fires faster, so even if 1 shell randomly fails, others will do the job.
Which makes it obvious that there’s no actual advantage to carrying 30mm.
…Your bombers are dodging?
And you are comparing it to the Type 99, which… fires even slower at 490rpm. Why would 500rpm on it be a downside, then?
I chose it because it has both 20 and 30mm guns, so comparisons are very quick and easy. I also don’t recall it taking well to damage.
I’ll be right back.
What does that have to do with inconsistency?
You mean inconsistent in that it matters where a round lands?
So you want to have hit points?
Where you always need the the same amount of hits?
That’s what you call consistent?
Whats that suppose to mean “the plane can absorb constant punishment”?
You kill the pilot, you kill the engine, you cause a lethal fuel fire.
The plane is going down. But you need ammunition that can do that.
You want to blow up a plane by hitting almost anywhere?
Well, you make a shell carry 80g of explosives to blow apart structure that isn’t the pilot or keeping the engine running.
You pretend like planes wouldn’t eventually disintegrate with enough hits.
WT even has a mechanic that deteriorates plane armor so pummeling a pilot with enough AP rounds is eventually going to kill him.
Complaining about instances where you hit everywhere but where you suppose to hit and then calling it bad for gameplay or inconsistent is laughable.
Yes.
I die a lot vs Pe-8 too.
I generally only attack bombers at the end of the match because the ammo expenditure is very big coupled with huge risk of 3-plane stabilized gunners taking me out.
Type 99 Mk 2 has better range and WAY, WAY more ammo on average.
There is no advantage to having 30mm.
Twin engined planes are tougher.
End of story. This one can tank a few.
P-47 gets destroyed with 1 20mm shot.
Type 99 Mk2 got a bit worse after the HE shell got nerfed a bit, but it’s still plenty good to ruin your day in 1 shot.
And my screenshot is old, but that’s simply because I quit using MK108 armed planes altogether, after Spitfire Mk 22 got hit in the wing with MK108 on my Me-262 and it resulted in some tiny part of the leading edge part of the wing turning yellow. I essentialy ragequit.
This is the same Yak-9K after 1 more 30mm HEI-T fron night fighters belt:
Luckily, 3rd one finally destroyed him via fuel tank explosion.
Here’s BF 109 after 3 37mm M-geschoss hits:
He flew just fine even without a wingtip, luckily friendly plane destroyed him before he got to AF.
Large caliber HE is extremely unreliable in WT.
more like 5.3 with these differences, it can already keep itself glued to your tail pretty easily.
MAYBE if they take that super handy AP-I, 90% of the ShVAK cryrants would be easily calmed down.
ShVAK is literally the weakest 20mil in terms of explosives, followed by Type 99 model 1 & 2
Also FW-190 A-8 would finally be a step closer to being closer to 5.0 /4.7, instead of a 4.0 plane because of the null advantage of structural damage mine shells are supposed to have for themselves
Same treatement swedish J20 has over Re.2000, since solely Incediary rounds suck (modeled horribly but another topic I believe)
Japanese props would finally come down by a lot too. And with some more nudging could finally be at their proper BRs for once.
50cal rely on accuracy by volume, thats why some people recomend to remove the improved 50cals mod to allow more spread. But yeah, the american 50cal can pull crap like that in-game just by sheer amount of rounds connecting to a spar and breaking while also dealing continous damage to the wing section itself. If one american 50cal connected, 3-4 connected in reality.
Players should start to consider that maybe not every cannon revolves to “who has more yellow rounds in their belts”.
Because a KV-1 would be given a 76 sherman’s pen because “its not fair, we have the same caliber”.
And I humbly believe that was a mistake, first thing tanks player do is look at the cannon and rounds and plan based on it, pilots should do the same and see explosive filler and decide if the explosive rounds should take the mayority of the belt or should AP rounds take more control.