Cannons doing too much damge

[PercussionCap]

@iegaatdao

a round with over 29.76g is powercrept by a round with 6.05g.

Ok so tell us which one of these has more, and which has less filler

@iegaatdao

Tells me the dude who mostly play Japanese props, whose 20mils should be the weakest

That’s cute. My most played are still german. But somehow I’m not under the belief that only german guns deserve to do good damage, despite also having some of the lightest HE shells.

@iegaatdao

that extra filler came with the cost of ballistics and fragmentation

…Fragmentation which is also not any worse than shells much heavier than it? The only real downside is ballistics (a one-sided change, I’ll give you that), but it’s not like german guns are struggling at all. MG151s still have great damage, placement, and magazine depth. Even MG FF/Ms hit like trucks.

@iegaatdao

What about Ki-61-I hei hien then? It can go fuck itself doesn’t it? Because “Im to lazy to check a number”, You skipped my point entirely.

Stats-wise, both TT and premium models are doing better than Ki-61-II (and that one better than Tei model). So clearly the MG151s are doing much better than Ho-5s if they can uplift that sad excuse of a 4.7.

@iegaatdao

Now suddently fragmentation is ok for you? But I DARE to propose fragmentation instead of structural damage for differentiate Mine rounds from regular fragmentation rounds

And I told you that’s the legacy damage system, and it would change nothing because instead of wings or tails falling off, most of your plane will be turned black, set on fire, and the pilot likely killed. Either way the one getting shot at is going down.

@iegaatdao

and 20mm from +30mm rounds

Do me a favor and sort these by caliber in ascending order. If what you say is right, it’ll be impossible since there is no differentiation!

@Loofah

and even F4U4B etc. etc.
It’s small in general.

Corsair is longer and has a LOT more wing area. A single hit to the wingtip is enough to make the J7W unflyable.

@Loofah

15mm currently sucks

You shoot someone, their whole plane is damaged and very likely set on fire.

@Loofah

You don’t need another gun going where Mk103 goes, because Mk103 ALREADY GOES THERE,

You do because MK103 has like 500rpm and is just one gun.

@Loofah

15mm currently sucks

Sucks so much I hit my enemies a couple times and their pilot dies because the fragmentation range is huge, even though I hit that last A-36 all the way back on the tail! That’s no exaggeration, everyone I shot at died because their pilot died, even the AI IL-2s.

Hit Analysis only saved a 7.92 AP-T hit, but it shows his condition shortly before dying:

This is what “sucking” looks like apparently. I’ll take ten, thanks.

@iegaatdao

instead of twisting the entire core game mechanic in your favour

How is it in my favor? I already have some of the most heavily-armed fighters in the game, and even before the cannon buffs/after the nerfs they still did great in that regard. This is for everyone’s sake.

@iegaatdao

you have a grugde for BR placement work on Japan

As would anyone playing it. But it’s not so bad, their aggressive playstyle is my favorite.

@iegaatdao

That’s the proof, making up an new and easy to implement system to help ALL overtiered stuff.
(It was a separate topic but was moved into the Balance thread by Stona.)

That’s a lot of effort when you could just normalize each plane’s player statistics to the players flying them. So if you have a gigachad player doing extremely well in an Re 2005, it will be detected as normal, if not below average for that player. Likewise if you have timmy in the XP-50/Yak3/Pyorremyrsky doing badly, that’s just normal for him, so he won’t be contributing to an unfairly low BR.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

That’s cute. My most played are still german. But somehow I’m not under the belief that only german guns deserve to do good damage, despite also having some of the lightest HE shells.

Yeah, light because of what?maybe Extra explosives? Yohoo, almost there!
Other rounds are heavier because they had thicker cases and a lot more inertia, which allowed better ballistics and indirectly helped create decent fragmentation.

german Mine rounds tried to pack a lot more filler, which resulted in a more thin case, a lot less mass to keep inertia and poor fragmentation, which was done in favour on an extra powerful blast.

Would be translated as the current extra focused damage of today, while most 20mm would see spread out damage, case and point mg151/15 and mg151/20 FI-T.
But we don’t see that, only concentrated damage, fragmentation only manifest itself on 30mm and up calibers.

@PercussionCap

And does that look like an almost x4 difference or only a x1.2 difference? Both fragmentate the same, when in reality the bottom panel should be for the mg151/20, yes, that’s as much damage I want it to make.
Because mg151/20, even with extra filler is no wonder weapon.

@PercussionCap

Stats-wise, both TT and premium models are doing better than Ki-61-II (and that one better than Tei model). So clearly the MG151s are doing much better than Ho-5s if they can uplift that sad excuse of a 4.7.

The stats? the sames one telling me F8F-1 and P-47 D-28 deserves to be below Ki-61-I?

Spoiler

Don’t use stats, except in extremes cases like the BI-1, they most often than not end with one finding a bullet lodged on it’s foot, that’s why I avoid to use them. Trust me

I want you to fly both personally and compare them, if you don’t simply come with a false testimony of who was better.

@PercussionCap

How is it in my favor? I already have some of the most heavily-armed fighters in the game, and even before the cannon buffs/after the nerfs they still did great in that regard. This is for everyone’s sake.

By mostly the weakest 20mil in terms of explosive filler, which I repeat, instead of fragmentation, creates structural damage.

@PercussionCap

You do because MK103 has like 500rpm (It’s 450 btw, Type 5 30mil does have 500rpm and Mk-108 has 600) and is just one gun.

Now RPM matter to you? when you shot down my argument of 30mm recieving a negative in the firerate department? Because 20mils weren’t “so far ahead”.

@PercussionCap

That’s a lot of effort when you could just normalize each plane’s player statistics to the players flying them. So if you have a gigachad player doing extremely well in an Re 2005, it will be detected as normal, if not below average for that player. Likewise if you have timmy in the XP-50/Yak3/Pyorremyrsky doing badly, that’s just normal for him, so he won’t be contributing to an unfairly low BR.

It was proof I tried, unlike you who just decided to throw shit at germany mains for wanting a just difference of TNT filler.

also I included that in order to enter a premium vehicle’s “sample population” you needed have already have a TT vehicle rank above it in the same nation. maybe that’s more proof you barely try to read stuff, including shell stat cards.

@PercussionCap

Do me a favor and sort these by caliber in ascending order. If what you say is right, it’ll be impossible since there is no differentiation!

In all cases the wing completely snapped. In fact, why use 30mils if they lose on ammo pool, firerate and sometimes even ballistics?

@PercussionCap

You shoot someone, their whole plane is damaged and very likely set on fire.

15mm requires focused fire, unlike the one/two-tap nature of cannons, it simply becomes obsolete

Let me clarify, I DO NOT WANT mg151/20 becoming one shotter and make every other 20mil complete ass.

.
It’s simple, the less TNT equivalent per caliber a cannon has, the more fragmentation oriented it becomes and the less structural damage it deals to stuff like spars and hopefully tail spars. This will be able to help simulate thicker cases.

The opposite will be true, mg151/20 (sorry for callin it so much, but it the literal exception) will have a concentrated structural damage with almost no “splash”, similar to today, but toned down. This will simulate the super thin case of these special rounds.

Side effect will include stuff like 23mil NS-23, because it has as much filler as the mg151/20, but comes with a thicker case, it would make a nice amount of structural and fragmentation damage, best of both worlds. And make it more desireable over the ShVAK or B-20, since NS-23 does come with a worse firerate and ammo quantity, since it only wins on explosive filler (redundant past 5g) and ballistics.

Yak-9T would see a considerable reason to be 4.0 apart from “Can kill tank”, since it would become an vastly more reliable one-shotter compared to the Yak-9 at 3.0.

Type 5 would recieve another upside, over simply just “better ballistics” and “99% chance of oneshot compared to usual 90%”

Planes with +3 20mils would benefit a lot too, since now they do make a difference apart from “accuracy by volume” they see now, There will be module health left for the extra 20mils to see use. case and point Yak-3 vs Yak-3P, J2M2 and J2M3/J2M5, Ki-84 Ko /Otsu.

Or simply differences in cannons swaps like ShVAK and B-20, ho-5 and mg151/20, AN/M2 and M3 and hispano MK.II and Mk.V, since firerate now can been as a visible difference in Kill time unlike now that it is simply “more lead for the headon/+800 snipe”.

It is a question to make room for other calibers and variable and allow extra depth and differentiation of aircraft armament to even aspects as firerates differences found above 700.

[Loofah]

@PercussionCap

Ok so tell us which one of these has more, and which has less filler

Do this “test” 20 times on video. Real sh*tter allows for huge variety in damage, due to fragments dispersion and point of contact.
Also, I regularly 1-shot people with Shvak/Type 99 Mk2. How can you do more damage to a wing that rip it off in 1 hit? For practical purposes, there’s barely amy difference, MG151/20 requires more time on target than Shvak due to belt composition and ROF, the “power” advantage is theoretical, and maybe not even that, as your “test” is just dishonest.

@PercussionCap

Sucks so much I hit my enemies a couple times and their pilot dies because the fragmentation range is huge,

Whatever, ace. I guess I have no experience playing this game. Oh well :(
Meanwhile, 15mm still sucks and requires a ton more clobbering than viable, especially with Do-335 which will lose a dogfight even to enemy shot several times. Hence 20mm is a way better choice, as 2.of those in the nose 1-shot people and hit when you overlead with MK103.
If you can’t hit with 450 RPM, tough shit, it requires keeping guns on target for like what, 130ms?

I score around 70% of my kills with 103 on A0, but around 85% with 103 on A1.

[Loofah]

@PercussionCap

Ok so tell us which one of these has more, and which has less filler

OK, I’ll give you that, vs wingroot there’s SOME difference.
I’ll give you that. Wingroot damage is non fatal in both cases, but MG151/20 will make maneuvering harder.

Vs any other part of wing, it’s just gone, so no difference.

But below the “different caliber” shots show really hilariousl small difference in damage.
If pilot did not get randomly taken out in one, the damage otherwise would not be practically much different from the others.

Now lets see the damage difference.
108g TNT vs 13g TNT.
550g shell vs 290g shell.

OH LOOK AT THIS SHIT.

8 times more TNT surely has translated into something substantial LMAO.
The idea 13g TNT completely wrecks 7 ton aircraft’s wing is pretty hilarious, not gonna lie.

Now, Shvak, 10 shots:

[Loofah]

Shvak 10 shots:

MG151/20, 10 shots:

Did I aim at the exact same pixel?

No idea.
More testing to commence.
5 MG151/20:

5 Shvak:

Where’s the difference?

However, 5 Hoe-5:

Hoe-5 kinda sucks compared to Shvak. GJ Gaijin.

Everything but Hoe-5 deals basically the same damage:

The final verdict:
every 20mm HE shell that is not HEFI deals exact sam damage, actually I think FI-T deals more damage than HEI. HEFI with less than 10g filler deals lower damage. HEFI over 10g is basically the same as HEI.

[KillaKiwi]

I think I had a dream where explosive shells weren’t breaking planes apart but caused more realistic fragmentation. lol

Or maybe I was just thinking about it before I fell asleep 😂

[Loofah]

Amyway, it seems that FI-T is a much better type of shell than HEFI. Even modern 16g TNT eq HEFI oftentimes scores only red.
Meanwhile FI-T at 6g TNT does just as well as HEI at 29g. HEF and HEF-T work basically the same regardless of explosive content as shown by Type 99 Mk 2 shots.

Also 25mm FI-at with 13g TNT basically performs the same as 37mm HEI with 108g.

In other words:

• explosive content has very small impact on damage
• only shell type and “class” have any real meaning, wirh 25mm being in the same “class” as 37mm, and being FI-T, thus dealing roughly same damage, because FI-T advantage over HEI basically can almost outweight 8 times bigger explosive charge

[KillaKiwi]

There was a time when ShVAK FI-T dealt more direct structual damage than Hispano shells but the Hispano shells created more fragments and damaged components in a wider area.
So on one hand the Hispano dealt more damage overall but on another the ShVAK damage was just preferable, when landing one shell on a wing can mean the plane is dead.

I suspect it’s just Gaijins damage slider. Or maybe their system changes how the shell behaves based on a filler/weight ratio.
Since Hispano shells are heavier, have more explosive content but have a slightly higher filler/weight ratio.

Yeah, probably just a broken damage system. Where shells with high weight but low explosive content deal very high structural damage, since the damage is only related to the fragments.

This also makes Ahead ammo break planes appart instead of damaging the internal components.
Since there are far too few sub-projectiles released to make them reliabe otherwise.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/7Sv1Ra7FSzh3

While against ground targets the opposite is the case. Now blast perfromance makes the shells more deadly because fragmentation performance is so poor that you need to rely on the ground based blast damage sphere, that can also damage open top crews behind armor.

So Mineshellls are more effective in killing ground vehicles than in killing planes, which they were designed to kill.

[Loofah]

Exactly, MG151/20 is the bane of open tops. With Shvak one has to hit a lot more, while 1-2 M-geschoss will clear out a turret.

IMO the 25mm vs 37mm is the most extreme example we have, where every single metric is in favor of 37mm, yet damage is almost identical.
Meanwhile, 25mm should be absolutely survivable, especially if a wing is hit (13g of TNT is very little, I guess the ability of fragments to pierce armor and destroy engines would be damn high because the shell is fairly heavy, so some big chunks should continue forward), while 37mm (which even at 108g TNT is massively gimped when it comes to explosive content because Gaijin doesn’t understand high explosives) should be the end of most single or double engine aircraft unless something like f.e. outer right edge of the horizontal stabiliser is hit.

[PercussionCap]

@iegaatdao

The stats? the sames one telling me F8F-1 and P-47 D-28 deserves to be below Ki-61-I?

Yeah, that’s the japan curse.

@iegaatdao

By mostly the weakest 20mil in terms of explosive filler, which I repeat, instead of fragmentation, creates structural damage.

I own the J6K, which has six cannons, 1200 rounds for them, and pretty good belt options. I will be one of the least affected players lol.

Who do you think will be affected the least from a cannon nerf? The guys with one or two, or the one with six?

@iegaatdao

Now RPM matter to you? when you shot down my argument of 30mm recieving a negative in the firerate department? Because 20mils weren’t “so far ahead”.

It matters when you are flying a fat brick, and your nose will be on target for a very small time (unless your enemy is blind and deaf), which is also why I’d prefer the 15mm guns.

@iegaatdao

In all cases the wing completely snapped. In fact, why use 30mils if they lose on ammo pool, firerate and sometimes even ballistics?

Uh huh. How can you know that? I’ve flown great distances with blacked out wings after getting hit with cannon fire.

@iegaatdao

15mm requires focused fire

@Loofah

Whatever, ace. I guess I have no experience playing this game. Oh well :(
Meanwhile, 15mm still sucks and requires a ton more clobbering than viable

I am literally shooting wherever, I haven’t used this gun or plane in over a year probably. 15mm has huge fragmentation radius. Again, I’ll take ten, and put them in most of my planes.

@Loofah

But below the “different caliber” shots show really hilariousl small difference in damage.
If pilot did not get randomly taken out in one, the damage otherwise would not be practically much different from the others.

It was not random, that’s a 57mm HE shell from the Ki-102’s potato launcher. It will do that every time unless you really get screwed over by damage RNG.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

I own the J6K, which has six cannons, 1200 rounds for them, and pretty good belt options. I will be one of the least affected players lol.

Who do you think will be affected the least from a cannon nerf? The guys with one or two, or the one with six?

In fact J6K1 will see a buff, 6 cannons will now make a difference other than “headon more reliable”

But aircraft armed with 1-2 cannons will see a difference, specially those with weaker explosive filler.

@PercussionCap

It matters when you are flying a fat brick, and your nose will be on target for a very small time (unless your enemy is blind and deaf), which is also why I’d prefer the 15mm guns.

Maybe after these reworks it will be also seen more favorably on aircraft that are nimbler and use 30mils.

@PercussionCap

Uh huh. How can you know that? I’ve flown great distances with blacked out wings after getting hit with cannon fire.

iegaatdao:

I know because I play ARB, and I try to spread out as much as possible on nations, let me tell you, 20mils are the same in damage in practice.

And how many times you flew with a black wing instead of a “no wing”. Can’t recall it? 1 clue, it’s mostly the later one.

@PercussionCap

I am literally shooting wherever, I haven’t used this gun or plane in over a year probably. 15mm has huge fragmentation radius. Again, I’ll take ten, and put them in most of my planes.

You can shoot “wherever” with a 20mil and it just detaches that part.

Also this doesn’t support a little my point, smaller calibers outclass largers ones by a mile?
And if 15mm fragmentates despite having over half the filler of 20mm rounds of smaller power and being a little bit smaller? So what’s stopping a 20mm round with 6.02g of filler to fragmentate instead of structurally dealing damage?

Maybe, since you said fragmentation is better, it would come as a buff to Japan instead.

[Loofah]

I love how Perc tries to derail the topic.

25mm deals same damage as 37mm?
But look at 15mm!

Shvak deals same/more damage than MG151/20, basically every 20mm deals same damage?
“Hey guys, you are wrong, look, Ho-5 is still the worst because reasons”.
OK, I checked, analysed and now we know the only reason Ho-5 deals less damage is goddamn shell type name.

What ,happens next?
Back to proving 15mm is super good.

Jesus Christ.

If it’s so good and powerfull why can’t 20mm deal slightly less damage?

[dovah4]

This discussion has been done and made to death.

All airplane DMs in-game are wet paper and so you have rounds with less HE filler than a packet of sugar blowing up a dude’s wing in 2 shots.

This makes it where a single russian or jap .50 are extremely powerful and they’re essentially cannons at that point because the game lists them as “High explosive.”

U.S. .50s are currently underperforming in the incendiary department on fuel tanks—doesn’t help that the game forces a focused convergence instead of a boxed convergence, ruining the effectiveness of the .50s. It’s also why you see in guncam footage of a P-51 or P-47 shooting a plane up close why some guns seem to go way off.

Normal incendiary rounds don’t even behave correctly in-game as they’re just treated like super weak HE where it just causes super-structure damage to the wing unless there is a listed HE filler. When IRL, they would pass through the skin until they hit a hard object and have a small explosion, and then a spray of incendiary material and copper jacket.

[FeetPics]

@iegaatdao

In fact J6K1 will see a buff, 6 cannons will now make a difference other than “headon more reliable”

But aircraft armed with 1-2 cannons will see a difference, specially those with weaker explosive filler.

Yes. It will make the planes with single or dual cannons significantly worse. The only reason this thread exists is because some sim larper thinks the only viable planes should be P-47s and FW-190s while everything else hits like a water pistol.

It makes it easier for him to dive back to base and preserve 18:1 KD ratio in sim. That’s it.

[Loofah]

I think it’s a good time to sum things up a bit:

For Air to Air:

1. 20mm is the end-all caliber, higher caliber weapons generally don’t bring anything to the table, that 2 20mm can’t do, other than (sometimes!) a bit more range. But f.e. MK108 is absolutely useless while it used to have its use, even if it mostly made no sense due to MG151/20 overperforming even pre-real sh*tter.

2. enemy plane falling apart is not a “wow, I hit him REALLY GOOD” moment, or “wow, my plane has so much firepower”, it’s “well, I hit him”, which greatly dimnishes satisfaction from getting a kill this way.

3. the damage “has to be” boosted because aerodynamic damage is mostly wrong, and instead of actually fixing that, we have this horrible bandaid that people support, which means it’s not going away (thanks guys, really, no better way to show Gaijin that they don’t have to do anything, than defending a POS solution to a problem they should have solved long time ago, this way the POS solution becomes permanent with no chance of improvement).

4. consistent gunnery and mediocre gunnery bring same results, if I fire for 0,7s and hit 10 shells using Yak-3U cannons, or if enemy flies through my shells while I just piint at 1 spot, because it doesn’t really matter most of the time if 2 or 10 hit, unless it’s from dead 6 that is

5. Weapon differ greatly ballistically, while there’s 0 diversity or realism regarding ammunition itself. I Which of course makes the gaming experience simply boring and flat and un-immersive. Want to have hard hitting guns? Oh well, everyone has super hard hitting guns, so GL with that, your German/Italian guns simply suck because they were designed with damage in mind, sorry. There’s no consistency to the rules. Why are ballistics, ROF and belts somehow a viable way of making weapons different, but damage isn’t? Imagine an FPS where every gun deals the same amount of damage. Now that would be pretty funny. Even in fairly realistic shooters like Rising Storm 2 there’s a difference between AR-15, AK and M-14, because it’s just fun to have some guns hit harder.

6. plane toughness does not really exist, everything is wet paper. This kills immersion and when your entire wing departs from a single hit, from a random spray - it’s EXTREMELY annoying. To be honest, I don’t even feel the satisfaction of kill when I land said spray. I feel like RNG scored the kill, not my skill, but I’m just going back to point 2 a bit.

For ground:
the SPAA balance being completely broken, with quad 14.5mm MGs being able to 1-click a Do-335 size plane out of existence. As a result users of higher caliber SPAAs that suffer from shells randomly not dealing damage are at a disadvantage, because their MAIN advantage - huge shell with tons of damage, is actually dealing same damage as way smaller caliber and faster firing weapon, while suffering from reliability issues that faster fire weapon can circumvent without much problem simply due to relative ease of scoring more than 1 hit, hence milktruck > Ostwind when trying to shoot down a plane.

[KillaKiwi]

@dovah4

Normal incendiary rounds don’t even behave correctly in-game as they’re just treated like super weak HE where it just causes super-structure damage to the wing unless there is a listed HE filler. When IRL, they would pass through the skin until they hit a hard object and have a small explosion, and then a spray of incendiary material and copper jacket.

For half a year I’m trying to get this fixed but the suggestion always get shut down.

I reported it as a bug, then I was told it should be suggestion. Then it was shut down like 3 times and the last time it took them 2 months without any change before it was denied again.

I even had a suggestion to tone down structual damage based on a German WW2 document about why the 20mm Incendiary shell was developed.
Unsuprising: 20mm Mineshells aren’t causing sufficent structucal damage to wings to bring down four engined bombers, while existing 20mm HEFI-T aren’t satisfactory for setting the fuel tanks on fire with attacks from behind.

While 12.7mm explosive bullets are causing as much damage as 20mm Mineshells in the game.

So your Ki-61 with four of them is equipped like a real life Fw 190 A-8 that had four MG 151/20.

[Loofah]

@KillaKiwi

So your Ki-61 with four of them is equipped like a real life Fw 190 A-8 that had four MG 151/20.

Oh, forgot about that on my list.

The best part is, it’s just a horrible state of affairs, yet people are defending it, because they somehow think that “nothing else can be done”. And thanks to them, nothing will be done, because we’re not just in a horrible spot, we’re making ourselves at home in this horrible spot.

[poopooo]

Is it possible that the exaggerated damage also affects helicopters? Lately I’ve been using the French H-34, and any SPAA kills me with one HE shot; a single 20mm or 23mm bullet usually breaks its tail.

[dovah4]

@KillaKiwi The main reason the damage is so jank is because Gaijin’s admission this is for gameplay balance.

[PercussionCap]

@Loofah

I love how Perc tries to derail the topic.

25mm deals same damage as 37mm?
But look at 15mm!

The starter of the 15mm conversation:

@iegaatdao

Do-335 A-0, why use 20mils if I can just use the much more easier to aim 15mm? oh wait, 15mm does actually fragmentate and doesn’t deal excessive amount of structural damage.

@Loofah

Shvak deals same/more damage than MG151/20, basically every 20mm deals same damage?
“Hey guys, you are wrong, look, Ho-5 is still the worst because reasons”.
OK, I checked, analysed and now we know the only reason Ho-5 deals less damage is goddamn shell type name.

It was you guys who claimed shell type does not matter, but then you also claimed every 20mm has the same damage (you did it just now)… as long as you don’t count the cannons that do have less damage, that you also just admitted?

Get your story straight.

@iegaatdao

In fact J6K1 will see a buff, 6 cannons will now make a difference other than “headon more reliable”

Six cannons is a frankly outrageous and unnecessary amount of firepower. This is just to say that a cannon nerf would affect me the least, and maybe even benefit me. Regardless, I do not want it.

@iegaatdao

And how many times you flew with a black wing instead of a “no wing”. Can’t recall it? 1 clue, it’s mostly the later one.

Very recently when playing the Shiden-Kai, I was caught in a 1v3 up high since my team decided to go farm tomatoes or whatever the hell, took serious damage from an F4U-4B in a headon (one wing root, center fuselage blacked out, engine almost dead, definitely more than one hit). Dived out to escape and would have made it with plenty of altitude to spare if a 109 K4 hadn’t come out of nowhere to shoot me on the airfield (and crashing in the process).

@iegaatdao

Also this doesn’t support a little my point, smaller calibers outclass largers ones by a mile?

You say a single shot from 20mm can take off a wing. The 15mm can’t do that, so how does it outclass them?

@iegaatdao

And if 15mm fragmentates despite having over half the filler of 20mm rounds of smaller power

It has less filler than the Ho-103’s HEF shells and deals way more damage. But also it’s perfectly fine as is. It’s a good gun.

@iegaatdao

So what’s stopping a 20mm round with 6.02g of filler to fragmentate instead of structurally dealing damage?

So… the legacy damage system, which is what the MG151/15 pretty much has? But which you also said you don’t want? But which would cause a disproportionately high amount of pilot kills, which would itself be kinda unrealistic?

@iegaatdao

Maybe, since you said fragmentation is better, it would come as a buff to Japan instead.

Hell no. The guns already work more than fine and the LAST thing they need is a reason to move them up again.

@FeetPics

It makes it easier for him to dive back to base and preserve 18:1 KD ratio in sim.

For this reason alone, cannons shouldn’t ever be nerfed.

@Loofah

the damage “has to be” boosted because aerodynamic damage is mostly wrong, and instead of actually fixing that, we have this horrible bandaid that people support

But what would this ACTUALLY change? Like great, you hit his wings and the lift imbalance caused him to lose control, despite no wings falling off. What is the DIFFERENCE between this and his wing simply being gone, also causing him to spin out of control, and also causing his death?

@Loofah

your German/Italian guns simply suck because they were designed with damage in mind, sorry

They do not suck at all. German guns might be the most consistent performers across this entire game’s history. They were good from day one and rarely, if EVER truly sucked like the ShVAK did.