Old ShVAK used to have both and yet it still sucked lol
Nobody said this. The point is to not have half the cannons do this:
(the video from before)
While the other half delete you on the first hit.
What do you mean “revert”? We have RealShatter right now.
And now it has all 3
Ballistics
Belts
And structural damage
It is what you are advocating for, nullify all differences besides ballistics and belts
I meant realshatter 1.0 and 2.0
3.0 is more like no shatter because fragmentation is only simulated on larger calibers.
And I repeat myself
Realshatter was never reverted.
There was a period where realshatter was bugged following the first update where it was a downgrade over legacy damage. Then it was fixed. Then it was broken again when Gaijin somehow made missiles not do damage. Now its fixed again.
If you read the posts here you will see that most advocates for reduced damage want something that is to the effect of reverting to something even worse than the legacy damage system. Note that the thread started 3 years ago which was right around the roll-out of realshatter for aircraft cannons.
This video is from approximately two months before this video was created.
Basically the OP and friends want to take probably the 2nd worst version of realshatter that we had…and then index everything in the game to actually be even worse than that. For “realism”.
To call realshatter 3.0 “realshatter” is is a complete shame, and I will refuse to call it so, because all it did what turn 20mils into 30mm high explosive and procced to basically remove significant fragmentation effects on small calibers.
I do not want it, I want a new system, reliable fragmentation damage, reliable pilot knockouts and actual differences in explosive filler from rounds of the caliber.
No, I simply don’t want useless cannons dragging otherwise perfectly good aircraft down.
They increased fragment count 8x in the last round of changes. This is the only time where RealShatter has been good.
What RealShatter actually does is create a randomized spread of fragments (and therefore damage), instead of the uniform spherical spread in the old model. On it own it has no relation to how good or bad gun damage is.
So you want the legacy damage system.
You sure? I barely see them fly around, even if they are supposed to be cosmetic, I neither see them splash all over the plane.
I just see a blue circle, 3 gray fragments and a red/black section.
It makes want to rip my own face off from your sheer lack of understanding. how did you read over my text just enough to try to reply but also completely ignore the content?
Previous system didn’t have neither:
1- reliable fragmentation
2- Reliable pilot damage
Only difference in filler and round type
Current system lacks
1- difference in filler
2- difference in round type
3- fragmentation, because it practically removed and converted to structural damage.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1pfywyb/251064_252030_part_3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1pg2wpx/251064_252030_part_4/
Yes it did. Fragment count and range were much higher, you could hit someone on one wing and the fragmentation would hit the pilot and even reach over to damage their other wing.
But again, this changes nothing. Both current and old damage systems took few hits to bring someone down.
Also shell type is very often up to interpretation, and it’s not like we can make our own belts. Regardless of which HE shell type is in the premade ones, we expect them to work, and there’s almost never a sidegrade option.
The worst part is after the last patch or so the fragmentation amount and damage to pilots was significantly reduced and now you can have a 20mm or even 37mm explode near a pilot, which should shower him in high velocity fragments, and it still doesn’t knock him out.
In fact before this change a few heavy fragment were actually continuing to fly in the same direction as the explosive shell.
So a Zero, with no pilot armor would be instantly killed by a Hispano HEFI hitting the tail, with fragments traveling all the way through the fuselage and kill the pilot.
Now even this last fraction of realism got removed, for no good reason.
Honestly. Fair.
I yearn for the day i can fly 5.7 or 6.0 planes without having to lobby hop to find a singlr viable lobby (if it even exists) due to the ju 288 spam.
Yes, really. There was a time pre real shtter when Shvak was also good, Ho-5 was still worse than Shvak, it was a relatively short time, and even then it was the worst 20mm in game.
A few screenshots prove nothing.
Why would you be doing such lame screenshots a few years ago BTW?
Do you have thousands upon thousands of random screenshots?
Or are you just making stuff up on the go?
You are literally claiming almost 3 years is “immediate”, so how is this even relevant, when the initial real shtter (1.0 and 2.0) period probably lasted longer than “OK-ish Ho-5 period”.
Ki-43-III sits where it is because it has extremely good guns, carries bombs and flies like an UFO wnd is bately played in Air RB. Recent nerf did not outweight cannon buff. End of story.
And wow, people are getting set on fire and not surviving. Guess what, I’ve set people on fire with single MG bullets. If I made a screenshot each time, would that support an argument that MG is 1-shotting people left and right?
Tails getting detached from even several 20mm AP hits even was a NORMAL thing ever since day 1 of WT, and I have been complaining about low tail HP for several years now.
Real sh*tter just allows to detach a tail with 1 hit, just not from dead 6.
Wanted to reply yesterday but I couldn’t access the source I needed.
No I got it.
What I wanted to say is that the Breda wasn’t as bad as people think.
In WT we have the Ho-103 which works the same but fires at 900 RPM instead of 700 RPM.
Likewise the US .50cal fires at 750 RPM but firing heavier bullets at higher velocity.
However there are two issue with the US AN/M2 .50cal and the Japanese copies, which is that they fire from a closed bolt.
Additionally they have pretty light barrels.
What isn’t represented in WT is that US .50cal heats up quickly but cools down very slowly.
A maximum of 150 rounds can be fired in a single burst, without the danger of cook-offs.
If an innitial burst of 75 rounds is fired and the guns is cooled for one minute after each burst, 400 additional rounds can be fired when limiting the burst size to 10 but only 150 can be fired when the burst size is 15.
So firing 475 rounds would take 40 minutes and firing just 225 takes 10 minutes.
With a cooling interval of 30s only 165 bullets can be fired in 15 round bursts, which takes 5 minutes.
Next is the accuracy. While the gun is probably fairly accurate in short bursts, a 100 round burst puts bullets 75% of bullets in a 4 mil radius.
Officially the effective range of the gun was just 400yd, as at longer range the efficency would drop significantly, as you would need to fire a lot of rounds to make the same hits required for a kill, but this would also overheat the guns more quickly.
The same would apply to the Japanese Ho-103 and the Type 3, which are copies of the US gun
Meanwhile the 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT uses a shorter but heavier barrel than the US .50cal and firing from an open bolt, which allows the barrel to cool much more efficently.
This would make the 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT more accurate, require a longer time to overheat and also cool down much more quickly and give it an advantage in range and in the ability to keep up pressure, firing longer bursts with less risk of a mulfunction.
Now there’s no denying that two synchronized 12.7mm Breda-SAFATs are very lacking in terms of firepower within the effective range of six US .50cals or even a single engine mounted 20mm.
But it would have a distinct advantage over similiar short recoil operated 12.7mm MGs, like going through 350-400 rounds, while others might stop working after firing just 180-200.
This is from the DEFYN video I linked, from 4 years ago. Is that not old enough? RealShatter didn’t even exist then, the earliest mentions of it are three years ago.
OK-ish is when just six shells completely destroy a plane?
“Recent” being… in update 2.18. We’re on 2.55.
DEFYN’s video is from June 25th 2021, the Ki-43-III’s huge engine nerf hit dev server on September 3rd 2022.
2nd most played japanese prop last month btw
And losing their pilots or tails.
First kill was done with just 6 shells. That’s, at most, 4x AP shells, which I’m sure someone will say they should do next to no damage because they’re “low velocity” or whatever cope excuse.
What is your source for this?
Wait…you think M2 stops working after 200 rounds?
Yes, after J7W, which is…
…also mainly played in GRB.
Both work great as CAS planes usually slow down, and get murdered by Ki, which itself has 1 good bombdrop (not much, but it’s something) while J7W quad APHE launchers slaughter tanks mercilessly and the platform itself is small and nimble enough to avoid SPAAs (something Do-335B2 f.e. can’t do).
6 shells to the tail is 4-5 more than oftentimes required under real shatter (that is, unless stabilisers/rudder/elevator go on shell eating spree, which wasn’t that much of a problem in the past).
6 .50 cal bullets can turn a module black.
And we’re going off topic pretty much. Real Shatter made the already overperforming 20mm cannons (that were less overperforming in case of Ki) overperforming to the point of absolute ridiculousness, while many players expected it would make cannons behave more realistic. The damage was NOT fine even before.
And when was RS 1.0 introduced? If 3 years is “immediate”, then a few months between engine nerf and start of cannon testing (that made balancing impossible for quite some time) is like a blink of an eye vs eternity
M2 is forced to stop firing unless it wants for it’s ammo to cook off inside the gun, that’s what he means, currently you it only jams after 150ish rounds, Yeah I also idk where he pulled that from, but I suppose you can add a m2 50cal nerf via making them able to detonate themselves if you want to
Because it’s 20mm AP, not a +50g tnt equivalent round nor a 20kilo Kinetic round nailing a structural support.
Love the way you already drop “cope excuse”, considering you so fiercely defend current 20mm damage because, “I nailed a 20mm yellow round! It must die now”.
So I suppose I can say a Ta-152 h-1 should turn better than a 3.7 A6M2 because more wing are = good, and I can fully ignore wing loading because you need to read the wiki and I don’t want to do that. I see you would not like that wouldn’t you?
So what’s the issue with making 6g of TNT equivalent deal less structural damage than 9.28g , 29.76g, or 35.09g
Is it because you don’t want to look into a simple pop-up statcard in protection analysis?
It add depth and allows further differences in between aircraft, case and point the Ki-61 late
The only upside the Ki-61-I hei hien is supposed to have over the Ki-61-II Otsu Kai is…
Acess to Mine rounds from the mg151/20 and possibly better belts, but now it simply has a worse powerplant, a worse ammo pool, worse cannon placement (20mils on wings instead of nose) and worse ballistics and stuck at 4.7, when it it’s currrent state it should next to the Ki-61-I Tei, which still loses on cannon placement and ballistics.
Ki-61-I hei hien is now only a downgrade instead of a sidegrade to Ki-61-II Otsu Kai.
Also with Morko Morane, why mount a stupid 20mil if I can just use a berenzin 50cal and do almost the same structural damage?, only losing point is a kind of mid 50/50 belt at max.
Do-335 A-0, why use 20mils if I can just use the much more easier to aim 15mm? oh wait, 15mm does actually fragmentate and doesn’t deal excessive amount of structural damage.
germany is still missing new formulas, and it took pretty long for mg151/20 Mine rounds to receive them despite the super common they are, imagine how much time for more “obsure” shells.
past systems were flawed on reliability matters.
Current system is flawed on realistic and balance matters.
It’s ironic that the hitpower system stayed inconsistent for many years like a russian roulette for some nations, and when they finally improved it in late 2021-2022 prior to the drag changes, they moved to realshatter right after and everything went back to square one.
Air Force Manual No. 64 - Fighter Gunnery Rocket Firing Dive Bombing - May 1945
TM 9-2 5 - Browning Machine Gun Caliber .50 AN-M2 Aircraft, Basic - January 1947
Doesn’t make sense in an aircraft gunnery/aircraft gun manual.
The gun is also used on bombers in simple mounts and can be operated in the same way as a gun on the ground.
