Totally agree it. 2S38 should be at 11.7 br.
Tbf abrams is pitifully undergunned considering gajin cant give it the historical round cuz reasons
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Honestly Abrams being called not good enough is mostly just skill issue. Abrams is a tank that doesn’t excel in any field but at the same time can do just fine in every situation. It’s the classic ‘‘Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one’’. The tanks that get better reload or firepower usually lack in armor, a lot, and the tanks that get better armor get worse reload. Abrams really sits right in the middle and can do everything just fine. It can adapt, which is a strong trait.
If you want an example of a straight up bad top tier tank, look at the Arietes.
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10.7 abrams is a limited vehicle its good but it has a high skill floor. Its pitifully undergunned.
Compared to its competition at 10.7, it is the exact same as I described. It does have a bad pen, but that’s about it. It is still fairly well armoured, maneuverable, and has the fastest reload at its BR. While other tanks at 10.7 that have 5s reload do get a better round (Ariete P and Chall mk3), it still has better armor.
But let’s not divert too far from the thread, it’s about 2S38.
Seeing how the first shot usually is the deciding factor at that BR as APFSDS will take out a multitude of components, I’ll take a round that can penetrate v faster reload.
M1 abrams at 10.7 is downright nasty man.
The round while not great is still mega potent coupled with the 5 second reload.
On the topic of the 2S38 , I’m partial in believing most auto cannon lights between 9.0 -10.3 are under BRed , it could be 10.7 but it has been nerfed a few times.
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best thing gaijiggles could do is shut down the game for maintenance and redo the tech trees and br system
i wouldnt care how long it takes aslong it would improve things
I mean, it’s not really that nasty. It’s got the worst round for MBTs at that BR, the protection doesn’t stand up against what it fights at all and the turret ring is the size of Jupiter. Even autocannons disable the turret ring almost instantly. Sure, it’s got 5 seconds IF you spend the GE or grind for an aced crew which most people don’t do. That’s not including the fact it doesn’t have a lineup with it. I’d much rather tank a Leopard 2A4 or T80B at that point b/c at least they can take hits and punch back.
It really is that nasty.
The protection is fine for the BR bar the most top end rounds you can find like L26.
The round is fine, there is quite positively no tank at the BR bracket you cannot one tap.
Even 11.7s with the round.
It
In what situation are you throwing your abrams that you get taken out so easily ? They have to be extremely close range to get those shots off in most cases.
Expert crewed mine and its 5.2 seconds so yeah. Doesn’t need an aced crew its nearly 2 seconds faster than say a T72 or even a leopard 1 which sits around 7
You say that as if the T80B doesnt get UFP by any chinese or british round at 10.7
Also something everyone conviently leaves out.
all T series ranks after 64 and 72 have turret ring trap shots. As @Razielkaine mentions
As well as LFP, and drivers port.
They suck man.
2A4 is good but I’d much rather my abrams for the BR if I’m honest. 2A4 has a huge issue of being shot clean through the right hand side drivers section and wiping the whole crew.
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Not really unless it’s a chemical round. 3BM42 and DM23 goes through the cheek at 1000meters from a frontal aspect and now you’re down a gunner and commander. That “advantage” of a 5 second reload? Instantly gone. Not to mention, the fact that the M1 can only pen around the breach, the drivers port and LFP v almost the ENTIRETY of the front of the m1 can be penned… like come on now.
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You mean all of the CQC maps or any angle you may have to peak because of combat? Turns out if they can reverse to angle peek you, they can get your turret ring before you can get your gun on them. You can thank Gaijin and their “infinite” wisdom of only making the M1 turret ring 50mms. Things like the 2S38 and Beglietz one tap your ring and any crew members behind it.
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Okay, does that change the fact I said “most” players don’t? And so what if the reload is shorter if the first shot is what matters? RARELY does a second shot matter except to finish a tank. It’s not like you’re gonna replace a crewmember or repair your vehicle in 7 seconds.
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Okay, and? Does that make the M1 any more survivable than compared to the T80B? That’s also not including the fact the T80B gets Kontact-1 which can help defeat APFSDS on top of chemical-based rounds.
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I mean… you literally shoot the LFP of the M1 and it does that. Shoot the right cheek and it’s combat ineffective until you replace the gunner with the loader IF the ammo doesn’t cook off and kill the tank. Heck, even by looking at BOTH of our stats, we do a TON better in the T series tanks than compared to the M1. The only reason why I do better in my M1s is because I do a lot of ambushing and I’m 90% of the time in a 4v12+ b/c my entire team is ODLs XD
3bm42 is one of the strongest darts at the BR , however it and Dm23 cannot get through the turrer cheek at 1000 meters.
Ive both shot at them with said rounds and been shot with said rounds and not had it go through.
Not at all, what you’re saying rarely ever happens and if so its the same case for say leopard 2 and such when it scythes clean through their turret face.
Theres not that many CQC maps, sure some are smaller maps, bar the likes of sun city anf abandoned factory, and maybe the port one then theres not actually many proper close quarters maps that dont have long range areas on them.
Doesn’t really happen to me all that often , and again you shouldn’t be in that position to begin with.
That’s bad tank usage on your part.
A marder 3 TD can and does one tap a CR2 in the LFP if you put yourself out in the open.
The second shot matter massively if you’re playing with more than a rush in mentality.
"Most don’t " what expert their crews or level them.up? Then they’re pretty damn stupid and that isn’t the tanks fault thats a player fault…
You’re mixing them together and saying the tanks bad.
It quite literally is more survivable than the T80, it has a better internal crew layout, and better ammo storage.
It gives an extra 5mm of kinetic armour protection sir.
You’re clutching at straws with that.
No one’s also really slinging chemical at this BR bar mad folks like me with HESH.
Ammo shouldn’t cook off if you bring again an intelligent amount, 22 rounds only puts 1 i believe on the right hand side of the turret.
As well as this you cannot just sling rounds clean through the abrams turret face, especially not reliably. Bar with some of the 11.7 tanks it comes up against, well 11.7 rounds like the merkava 120 dart.
My original M1 abrams was
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A my first ever tank of that rank so it’s not a good basis
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B ran it with Xm1 as a back up for a while so again not a good basis.
Check out my M1 KVT its better than all my T series stats.
Edit : The Abrams is also one of if my not most used series of MBTS in tbe entire game.
Bar maybe the chieftains over all.
I’ve just below 1000 games between my abrams.
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I forgot that Germany gets a round for both the 105mm and 120mm called DM 23, my bad. I was talking about the 120mm variant b/c I was comparing the same BR of 10.7. However, the 105mm DM33 also punches through the M1 cheek at 1000 meters. You shooting the side with the loader or the side with the gunner and commander?
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I mean, the 105mm M1 can do that but the spall liner is pretty strong in the Leopard 2. If you skuff the shot even a little bit, it’s gonna eat all of the round OR the FCS will eat it. UFP is pretty hit and miss as well as a good number of spots where it will bounce and get eaten by the turret ring with 0 dmg. Granted, the Leopard 2 does have a massive mantlet is a weak spot.
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I mean, most maps have engagement ranges of MAYBE 1.2km to 1.5km. For tanks of that era and newer, it’s basically a knife fight since they have APFSDS and LRFs. Occasionally I’ll see Sands of Sinai but usually it’s city maps or smaller maps like Mozdok. We’re lacking in maps that have several km between objectives for modern equipment. Would actually help with the CAS issue since we could then actually have our SPAA not just sit in one location b/c there’s nowhere else to go. I haven’t seen Red Desert in forever and even then, rarely did I ever see it.
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Ah yes, let me hull down in a city map…
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If you’re not catastrophically damaging or KOing a tank with your first shot, then idk what you’re doing.
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Most players probably either spend SL or are leveling up their crew skills still. Do you think every player is spending GE or grinding every vehicle to get it aced? You do realize that 5.0 second reload is ONLY with an aced crew and max crew skill right? If you only have max crew skills, the reload time is 5.8 second. If you upgrade to expert, it’s 5.3 seconds and aced is 5.0 seconds. HOWEVER, that’s also with the loader alive.
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You do realize you can one tap the M1 to the turret ring from the front? It literally kills all the crew from spalling. Why do you think American players are so pissed we don’t have spall liners on the M1s yet even though it’s integrated into the armor? And if you put a round through the blast door/wall and cook off a round, it kills the tank. At least with the T series, it’s in the hull so you can hide your ammo.
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it’s still 10mm v flat armor, which can add up when you’re adding angles into the calculation. Frontally, that could make or break if a round goes through at an angle from the front. Especially when m774 is already temperamental about going through. That’s not even including Kontact 5 which it also can see.
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Fair, seeing how the round completely breaks into spall on that side. Still lose the loader but any player at that BR would know to shoot the other side if they can.
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Well, this also comes into question of when did you use the KVT? I have to ask b/c since the Russian tech tree got the 10.3 premium lineup, Russian teams have been struggling. I still don’t get why that’s a thing in game and then everybody goes “But Russia struggles in top tier” as if it isn’t filled with ODL
Neither the DM23 120 (which is what I was refering to), nor the 105 will “punch” through the M1 turret face.
There may be a specific pixel that is busted in which case most tanks have that.
I’ve both been shot and shot through a. CR1 turret with the abrams round.
You do realise the leopard variants the M1 have do not have spall liners.
You’ve no idea what you’re on about.
Nothing to do with 2s38 nor M1 abrams.
Different threads for that.
That is not a CQC , CQC on is when you turn a corner and an opposing player is withing extemely close ranges.
Considering in real life, most tank on tank combat happens between 800 meters and 2kms then I’d say most are okay.
Some outliers though like I said.
You can if you know how to position properly hull down doesn’t mean you need hills it just means to find something to hide the hull.
Even other tank carcasses work.
The key piece of information, catastrophically damaging, for example you can drive around a corner damage most the internals if say a 2a4 , but they can fire back.
That 5 second reload allows you to say, reload and fire again before they can put a fire out and react.
Thats just one example off the top of my head at 8am.
Most people I play with and have played with have relatively high level crews and expert them specifically because the crew bonuses are massive.
Don’t try and patronise me , I’m well aware most don’t ace the crews, however by that standard it also means the leo2s and such have a slower reload than what I mentioned.
Again you do realise they are my most used MBTS and if you’re silly enough to position and rush to get shot like that then thats on you.
Since when does it actually kill the tank, it just cooks the ammo and allows you to keep (if loaded) the one in the breach.
Also the T series have a huge turret ring weakspot which nukes the crew too.
Or drivers port.
Why are you shooting contact 5 ERA with any dart.
Also Kontact-1 last I checked on all my russian tanks was 5MM on flat armour.
Why infact are you shooting any ERA on russian or chinese tanks.
That’s a non argument against abrams.
You keep saying this but in the multitude of games I have with the Abrams tanks someone firing clean through the turret face and taking out half the crew hasn’t happened more than 2 or 3 times.
I have no idea why you insist on this weakness.
You’re also the first person to suggest it.
To me
I got the KVT around march time this year, maybe a bit before hand.
No more than 6 months ago if I remember rightly.
Meanwhile the M1 i got it 4 years ago and was horrible with it.
Then I learned using the M1A1 and IPM1 how to actually use the M1
usa also has a 10.3/7 lineup, fhe stryker , which has M900, auto loader and ofc the pnuematic suspension, M1, 120S M1 KVT, A10A EARLY and
The shocking truth is most players who only main one tree tend to be worse overall, then ODL Mentality which is now spreading as low as even 7.7 has destroyed most meaningful matches…
Also at higher BRs lets not forget the scout drone buffs that now turn it basically into arcade.
However this has went quite off topic.
As much as i like to chat, i dont enjoy derailing threads too much.
The 2S38 itself now i don’t believe is particularly OP ,ir could do with going to 10.7 purely to prevent it seeing stuff like amx30s or leo1s, type 74 etc which it can and will generally one tap.
105mm DM33
120mm DM23
125mm 3BM42
Those all seem like they pen :T That’s not including elevation change or if the turret isn’t slightly off from whoever is shooting them like in a normal match.
Vice with the Leopard 2A4, you have to hit the glass optic to take out the gunner and commander (FCS will eat the round just because of the shape of it so any lower is literally a game of RNG) or the mantlet. You’re right on the spall liner, I’ve gotten used to higher tier Leopard 2s. Still annoyed Gaijin won’t give NATO their integrated spall liners.
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Relates to how the armor was designed for longer engagement ranges.
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The designed engagement ranges are about 3km, even up to 4km in the right conditions. Pushing it to 1km is absolutely CQC for these tanks and what their armor profile is designed around. The only map that gets close to that is Sinai at 3.6km^2 but that’s not mentioning how that’s from corner to corner.
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Part of the Hull Down doctrine is that you can also back up to a “turret down” and “hide position”. That’s just using cover, which may vary seeing how APFSDS can go through hulls and the M1 turret ring is a huge target that any casual player will know about.
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If they can fire back, why would they not just shoot you? You don’t HAVE to put the fire out immediately and can wait until the threat is over. That’s also assuming they don’t also shoot you because you’re gonna have to show yourself before your barrel comes around.
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They also have a slower reload BECAUSE their rounds are far more useful. It’s not patronizing you if even you admit that most don’t ace the crew and is a straw man’s argument.
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Or maybe because I play multiple countries and understand how to counter their MBTs? Like you’re acting like it’s any different that the turret ring is a massive weak spot whether you play slow or fast.
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if it goes through the wall, it will kill the tank. They added that b/c Russian mains were upset they couldn’t kill M1s with turret shots. Which, tbf, is kinda accurate. If you compromise the breach wall/door and the ammo cooks off, it’s STILL gonna go inside the people space. And we can’t pretend the T-series turret ring and the M1s is the same… that’s like comparing a thread to a steel i-beam. Also, driver port on the M1 nukes the crew too but which one is easier to hit at range?
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Well what else am I gonna hit it with? HEATFS? Also, let me guess “just flank them” as if CQC maps don’t always permit that. Fair, it’s 5mm against flat armor. I meant when like straight ahead like in normal engagement. Made that post at 11pm so I was a bit tired. But either way, that can still make or break if APFSDS gets through at range and angle.
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I’ve done that against plenty of M1 players and also been on the receiving end of it. You’re acting like 3BM42 wasn’t designed specifically to counter NATO NERA of the time in 1986, literally a whole decade and a half after the start of the M1 program and over 6 years after the original M1 design came out. Heck, even more to how it works, the 3MB42 was designed to counter the long turret armor, which is better than the short turret armor.
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So when the mass amount of top tier Russian players are up there because they bought it? Genuine question, have you played around that BR being on the Russian team? It’s honestly pretty bad atm with how player skill is and has been for a good while.
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Those are all 10.3 though. That’s not a 10.7 lineup because they’re 10.7, that’s because you have nothing else to bring.
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That’s fair… Wish they would do something about that as the extra spawns they gave for premium tanks haven’t fixed the issue. Idk, I have brought the 2S38 into 11.7 matches and do pretty well with it. It may also just be because I don’t hold W like most of the players I watch with it and got my crew skills up grinding through the TT. And fair enough, also afraid one of the moderators is gonna jump us for it XD
Thats the projection maps of all 3 rounds you listed, you cannot put them as you say clean through the right hand turret face what you are shooting is a cherry picked pixel sized weak point that every tank has in the game.
The Dm23, 3bm42 and DM33 cannot reliably pen consistely the turret face and go through at all.
It’s like when you fire at a T72B 1989 and it goes through its turret cheek, that doesn’t suddenly it’s a weak point.
As is shown here with the 3BM42 with the Leopard 2A4
Abrams round can and does go clean through it as well. Disabling enough to make it a huge issue for leopard. So in turn what you are saying is a huge negative for Abrams is a non issue that every tank has for the BR. CR1 turrets get penned by T62M1 sometimes.
just to reinforce what I said earlier, the chances of it happening are extremely low.
As for Leopard 2 you shouldn’t be firing at its turret in general in preperation for higher Br’s the weakest point is again its entire right hand side of the hull.
even the STRV122B+ shares this same weak spot which can be penned with a 9.3 L23 round.
You stated the Leopard 2a4 has a spall liner dude.
You’ve no idea what you’re talking about when it in fact does not
I realise reading back on my response though I missed out words, It was a very long day yesterday so if there’s issues with any of the actual written English, I’ll rectify that as we go.
the tanks are designed to be able to fire up to in some cases 5KM, much like CR1 still holds the longest range tank kill at 5.6 KM , however that is irrelevant.
most real life tank engagements in modern wars have happened in the 0.8 to 2.2 KM ranges
So realisitically in WT we’re not too far off it. This is not CQC at all.
Bar some of the maps that are pure city maps with absolutely no long range areas at all.
Which almost every map in game has sections for.
The “hull down” doctrine does literally requires IRL and in game for tanks to have the hull hidden, Turret down is when you push that to the limit and show literally only the optics and main armament, in which case no one is going to hit the turret ring.
the abrams turret ring is large yes, but so is a T80s turret ring, or even that big ass gap below the 2A4s main armament.
Most people panic and do fire first assuming they can fire back.
However I’ll rectify the statement then, if you push that corner and hit a 2A4 and disable the turret ring, but not his engine for example, then he can turn to shoot you, if you have say a 7 second reload (or longer) they can and will kill you.
However, with the 5.3 second reload you can and will fire before they can turn to you.
As well as this, it also means when Abrams gets shot and can move the hull but not the turret, then you can also take them out before they reload if you have shot at the same time and buggered it up.
I have not used the aced crew as an argument. I am aware it’s
- An unfair paid for advantage in most cases.
- Unrealistic to expect people to have it.
- Pretty damn unattaible without spending a ludicrous amount of time.
However I am talking about expert crews which very much are easy to attain as well as level.
the 2a4 with an expert level 108 crew still has a reload over a full second slower than an abrams,
at these BR’s the seconds become vital, it’s one of the huge drawbacks of the top tier chinese MBTs.
(BTW your manner of speach is infact patronising but it’s not relevant now)
I’ve played more nations at higher BR’s than you have bud, the positioning and patience is key to making an abrams work.
Not that big a discrepency if you actually look and aim for them both.
The T80 is far easier to driver port kill at longer ranges, funnily enough the abrams hull angle makes it harder to pen the driver port at longer ranges.
I haven’t died to an ammo cook off in abrams in a very, very long time, bar at top tier when I got slammed by a mav through the turret side / front angle.
The Contact - 1 in game is completely non relevant to stopping APFSDS bar maybe the absolute worst ones in game like found on the type 69 for example.
Which is again not relevant to the round found on the abrams nor how you should engage russian MBTs .
Again, why are you shooting russian MBTs in the ERA.
Who said you had to flank, just make sure you know where to aim before you push or let them push.
You are mixing up my knowledge of what is real life and the game, I’m fully aware that the 3BM42 was designed to go through the NATO NERA of the older generations of MBT, however you seem to also forget MANGO was introduced the same time as the M1A1 which had improved armour. So whats the corrolation in game. None of the rounds or armour perform in game how they should IRL that has been factually proven time and time again.
Even APHE isn’t how it should be.
My statement is in game the turret of the abrams doesn’t just get lol penned and if you actually read what I’ve said a good few times, the only rounds that can maybe pen it are the L26 and 3BM42 as they are literally two of the best rounds at the BR.
Though to actively hit the weak point and go clean through and actively demolish the tank is a lot lower than you make out. As I’ve said, in the M1 alone it has happened to me about 2 or 3 times and that is it.
I’ve got Russia at top tier.
10.3 is a pain in the butt yes I know but literally all 3 of the main nations are a pain in the butt now due to ODL’s and premium lineups.
The german players for example win more because the tanks are better and it gives them the advantage.
Russian tanks are pretty crap as well as that if you don’t know how to use it then they are pathetically bad. Hence the teams lose constantly. One of the curses of enjoying China is being paired with Russian teams constantly.
So let me get this straight, You are saying that America doesn’t really have a 10.7 lineup because the extremely strong 10.3s cant be uptiered ? You haven’t spent enough time at these BR’s then if you’ve not seen the US teams do exactly that and die and leave exactly as the Russians do.
The 10.3 Lineup for Russia but is larger I’ll say that much.
The biggest issue I have is that it really hasn’t even been trialed yet as far as I’m aware, so by the rules they tell us to follow, it shouldn’t be in game.
the 2S38 isn’t really bad, it’s just not what it once was, it used to be a pain in the hole when it was added cause it brought a decently high pen dart and fire rate to a lower Br where some Auto cannon lights were still firing APDS.
I mean it was introduced at 9.7 / 10.0 first so it’s been uptiered since.
Yeah I don’t mind a pleasent discussion about the game but the mods can be picky about where to have em.
EDIT: oh also you know you can just quote the text rather than number it, takes you more time to do that
EDIT 2 on the context of ODL It really is an issue.
Even when the dudes 2nd in the team he leaves.
The only BR the 2s38 will be balanced is 15.0 or some shit.
On a serious note, gaijin should remove the 2s38, refund everyone the GE they spent to get it (not that they deserve it), and publicly apologise for adding it in the first place.