Can we finally uptier the 2S38 to a BR where it sits with it's contemporaries or will it always be an underteired meme?

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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27

KDR average based on one person is a decent method of determining differences in vehicles.

It’s not. That’s why me using that metric was not helpfull. You are presenting a statistic with a volume of ONE participant and vastly different amounts of games played. That is pretty much useless. It’s an indicator nothing more.

On top of that, the comparison is flawed initself because the 2 vehicles are not at the same br, and thus have different factors playing into winrates and KD.

2S38 does not have 1x minimum zoom optics. Thermals aren’t the optics themselves, and IRST doesn’t help against tanks.

2S38 is always worse than HSTV-L in the anti-tank role, the role that both tanks are BR’d on.

That is the key point. They are NOT only BR`d on their anti-tank role.

My man. We are playing RB. Ground vs ground combat isn’t the only metric there is when balancing ground forces.

The same way aircraft are also balanced on their CAS loadout, and not only based on what they get to hit air targets.

A 2S38, if played with more then 2 braincells, can literally deny enemy helicopters the airspace and severely hinder jets until it gets destroyed.

It is as or even more effective in that role then most SPAA vehicles at this br.

On top of that it has munitions for ground combat that are only 50mm less effective then HSTVL rounds, 1.3 BR lower. With twice the fire rate.

Do you honestly think that all + the miscellaneous improvements in terms of thermals, LWR and IRST don’t play into how this vehicle is placed in terms of BR?

If so, idk how I can help you anymore.

You defend 2S38 more than anyone else I’ve witnessed on the forums.

Clown Emoji for that one.

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28

If you go beyond one participant, you’re measuring skill not vehicles.
You cannot measure vehicles outside of two methods:
1- Comparative analysis.
2- Stats using one person to avoid measuring skill.

Winrates don’t matter, everyone knows this if they took stats. Winrates are a measurement of skill, not vehicle power.

2S38 is 10.3 purely because of its anti-tank capability otherwise it would be ~9.7 just above M247.
2S38 is a ~9.7 anti-air with 10.3 - 10.7 anti-ground capabilities, thus its BR’d based on its anti-ground capabilities.

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29

Not to mention it can pen the Leo 2 of any kind in the hull, pen the front of the turret of the leo 2A4 , when you shoot the 2s38 , alot of ghost shell happens , if not, well you brake a mirror?! This tank is broken in all aspects and should not even be in the game as they dont even have any real numbers for this new vehicle that is not even used by the russian army yet!

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30

The 2s38 is NOT and ifv, its an SPAAG

31

Holy hell this is one stupid reply,

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32

It shoots like an IFV, it’s as effective as IFVs, it’s better as an IFV than a SPAAG, so it’s an IFV.
It’s a 9.3 SPAAG at 10.0 cause it’s better as an IFV.

33

You think GJN uses sample sizes of one when doing their “statistics” for balancing? Do you need me to explain why small sample sizes, nevermind a sample of one, is a bad idea?

Alvis is a known forum troll. It’s why they had to change their name from razorvon lol.

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34

Balancing vehicles on winrates would be foolish; which is why Gaijin doesn’t do it.
Gaijin balances on comparative analysis.

35

ok so lets entertain your logic, if it had only the spaag capability and no ability to engage tanks it would be a 9.3 vehicle, by your own logic if it had no ability to engage aircraft it would be a 10.0 IFV, now can you please tell me how an AFV which incorporates both of these features is supposed to be 10.0? and this is using your own flawed logic.

36

oh so thats why hes damn everywhere

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37

what?

38

I think that all of these SHOULD impact BR rating. It is generally ridiculous that a light tank with proximity rounds instead of ranged rounds wouldn’t change the BR of it. It drastically changed the effectiveness of it. also, you really can’t just say that the OTOMATIC and the 2S38 are similar in the condition of having APFSDS. They also have very different properties. The OTOMATIC has worse thermals, not allowing it to spot aircraft as well, no laser rangefinder, making it less aware of helis and/or planes. This proves that these should impact BR and make them less or more effective. On the subject of the HSTV-L, It has bad penetration for the BR. Saying that the HSTV-L is not in a worse position and citing the penetration for this is just wrong. It is 4 BR brackets above. Also, the armor really doesn’t do anything to help in the position it is in. The HSTV-L faces better armor and better guns than the 2S38 does by far.

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39

Why is it not at a higher battle rating? Why do you think that the HSTV-L is better? I think it should be at 10.7 for the place it is at right now and how it performs.

40

Because 10.0 is higher than 9.3. Nothing flawed about that.

@MistaFin
They do only if the capabilities are higher than that of its anti-tank capabilities.
HSTV-L isn’t 4 brackets above anything.
HSTV-L’s closest analogue is OTOMATIC and the Italian at 9.0/9.3 but that is larger, slower, and has worse armor & optics.

HSTV-L is superior cause it’s faster, more armor, more pen, better optics, and smaller.
If you think HSTV-L should be 10.7 then 2S38 should be 9.7 according to your rules.

41

I don’t think that the 2S38 should be at 10.0 right now. Probably around 10.3-10.7. It is better than the HSTV-L right now. 3x faster reload and facing vehicles at lower BR brackets. the penetration in this situation is proportional to the vehicles they face.

Yes, it is. 10.0-10.3-10.7-11.0-11.3 Is 4 brackets higher than the 2S38

Yes, this is true. That is why I think the OTOMATIC should either be dropped along with the HSTV-L Or they need to raise the 2S38 2 brackets.

Again, the penetration really doesn’t help with the tanks it faces. The armor is horrible anyways and will not stop any rounds at this BR. Even as maximum angle, most rounds at 10.3-11.7 are going to penetrate this. The armor really doesn’t help.

What are my rules?

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42

with the penetration difference being so little, and the tanks it faces having much higher armor the higher volume of fire from the 2s38 will be far more effective at taking down tanks from the side, even more so now that spall liners are a thing

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43

Spall liners only work on first shot, and both pen side armor.
Making your point moot.

44

my point is still perfectly valid if not more so, first of all spalling damage is equally bad for both rounds, for that reason only the 2s38 has the advantage because again with the low damage they both deal having volume of fire is better, my point is even better when you consider the fact the first shot of the hstvl does nothing when hitting spall line, the 2s38 has an advantage even in that regard because again because they both have bad damage having more Volume of fire gives a bigger advantage than 50mm of extra pen.

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45

Alright, that just makes the 2S38 better than the HSTV-L:

HSTV-L:

  1. Shoots spall liner, breaks it
  2. Has to wait 1.5 seconds to shoot again without spall liner interfering

Within that same amount of time, the 2S38 does this:

  1. Shoots spall liner, breaks it
  2. Has to wait 0.5 seconds to shoot again without spall liner interfering
  3. Has to wait 0.5 seconds to shoot again without spall liner interfering
  4. Has to wait 0.5 seconds to shoot again without spall liner interfering

I think it actually makes your point moot.

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46

I have stopped posting in this thread @AlvisWisla is legit straight up trolling, making up his own rules, stats and just discards everything that doesn’t fit into his reasoning of why the 2S38 is fine where it is.

Pointless to continue arguing with this dude. Invest your time in something that doesn’t turn your brain into mush.

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