Bring back armor meta (midtier)

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
22

Higher penning light tanks on average do not have faster-firing guns than mediums or heavies.

No tank should be surviving side-shots, yes.

The T114 is 7.7 (so rarely faces WWII stuff), is not faster than contemporaries around its BR (including MBTs), and its gun can be 0.50 cal-ed.

The M552 (76) does face WWII stuff somewhat often, but again it doesn’t have crazy mobility compared to other light tanks around it and it easily can be taken out by any HE shell (plus it only gets access to HE or solid shot shells).

The ELC bis does face WWII stuff a lot, but again doesn’t have crazy mobility, its turret cheeks can be 0.50 cal-ed, and its reload is not much faster (if at all faster ) than most medium/heavy tanks around it.

The AML 90 rarely faces WWII vehicles, can be 0.50 cal-ed, and does not have a reload much (if at all) faster than the tanks around its BR.

The Ratel 90 faces WWII vehicles often, but it can be 0.50 cal-ed, and does not have a reload much (if at all) faster than the tanks around its BR.

The only one that somewhat makes sense is the Ru 251, which should probably just move up to 7.7 (and even then it doesn’t have a faster reload than most things at its BR).

That really is dependent on the tank. There are really no light tanks in my experience that have few disadvantages - and to be honest, its usually that the high-pen light tanks can be penned by literally any MG in the game, have slower reloads than most tanks, and are still not that mobile anyways.

The issue with that is that the Jagdtiger is still not terrible in an uptier. It’s got enough armor to stop most rounds with or without angling, you just need to be more strategic around where you move (which to me is a fair trade-off).

That assumes that the current post-WWII tanks at WWII BRs are being kept their artificially, rather than their BR purely reflecting their performance. Even if BR decompression did happen, it would not drastically change the BRs of post-WWII vehicles.

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23

So this game had a times very similar to what I’m proposing. It worked fine without heavy tanks being boss tanks. I think there is a wrong assumption from your side which is that heavy tanks would be impenetrable. But in the WW2 era there still is enough vehicles that can pen high amounts of armor with the only difference to modern tanks being that these tanks have bigger reloads and are usually not that mobile.
You should also not make the mistake of thinking that certain heavy tanks would still have the same BR. For example; Back then the Jagdtiger used to be 7.3, on the same BR as the IS3. The only reason it got pushed down is the modern stuff as I explained in my previous comment.

I don’t want universal advantage, I just think the additional advantage got too weak. I mean look at how few players still play heavily armored tanks. That’s because the drawbacks of heavy tanks have gotten way bigger than the advantages. Ofc this does not count for all heavy tanks, especially the ones that have never relied on their armor that much anyways don’t suffer as much.

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You could argue it still faces conventional stuf but what counts as conventional is something I don’t want this discussion to get stuck in. With the 50 cals; at 7.7 I think most vehicles have comparable MGs, so that’s a fair point.

The mobility should rather be compared to other WW2 stuff in this discussion and compared to that it has good mobility paired with a good gun and stabilizer.
That argument with the HE shells is something I don’t really like because I play most of my tanks with APHE, AP or APDS shells loaded, so ofc I can switch to HE but needing 2 shots to reliably kill that thing is not really are good argument for it being easy to kill since most medium armored tanks don’t really take many more shots.
On top of that overpressure often doesn’t work.

Again: compared to conventional tanks is faster, better reloading and at 6.0 there is many tanks don’t don’t have that handy MG.

again, same thing with conventional tanks but you are right in general. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if the AML 90 was moved down again in the future.

Again, many tanks do not have such big MGs. And something else I want to add; only because a vehicle is possible to be killed by MG that doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be too good.

Them being able to be killed by rather big MGs is literally their only disadvantage. They are overperforming in nearly every aspect. Ofc MGs being able to kill them is a balancing factor but not necessarily one big enough.
What I was saying in that comment was not that light tanks were impossible to fight against. Again: I think Mid-Tier is very playable, it’s just not balanced in the best way.

It can only stop rounds against conventional tanks. That’s exactly the point I’m making. If everybody started only playing modern stuff anymore, the Jagdtiger would literally be unplayable.
In your comment you said that “this one conventional tank is actually not that bad because it can do particularly well against other conventional tanks”. That’s just not an argument you can make in favor of modern tanks.

The problem is that you cannot compare conventional vehicles with modern ones like that. There is a huge difference between how conventionally heavy armored tanks perform against modern tanks vs how they do against other conventional tanks. This huge difference is literally what led to Gaijin removing the Maus, so even they are actually aware of that problem.
If there was a statistics about how conventional tanks performed against modern tanks and how they performed against other conventional tanks you would see a huge difference in performence.

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25

I usually see a fair number of heavies in my matches. I would say it is rather portional to the ratios of heavies at the given br.

Honestly, the jagdtiger is still pretty good. Main reason for it struggling is gaijin ruining maps.

Im not sure how the brs would work due to the huge gaps. Like what would be the reserve tanks for post war? Would there be enough so battles are not just the same 4-5 tank fighting?

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27

Hu?!?
In the 6-7’ish brachet it’s like 5 out 6 tanks are heavy, super heavy or gigaenourmus tank destroyers.

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28

Me when I play 9.0 and see it’s 100sp to spawn my first heavy tank:

era br

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29

that’s true but the numbers are going back. Compare a 2018 battle with now. Something definitely changed. But since I cannot prove this point with any data it is vague and stupid to bring up from my side.

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Yes, again, this is not the point I was making. I’m pointing out that the Jagdtiger underperforms against modern tanks and overperforms against conventional tanks.
Btw Gaijin flattening all the good old maps is just another sign that they want to get rid of people actually having to use their brains and using the terrain to their advantage.

I think there is many tanks already in the game (T92, Ratel, M551 (76), leKpz, M109, M41, M56, BTR80-A, G6, Type 76, Sta-3, Type 63, PLZ 83, 2s1, AUBL, Fiat 6614, AMX m4, ELC bis, Bkan, Pbv 501, Zachlam Tager, Rochev, M51 etc.). These are all modern vehicles between the BRs of 6.0 - 6.7. Now you can argue single ones shouldn’t be there but that won’t change too much.
I think that the reserve BR of post war would already be more divers than probably any tier 7 years ago just with these already existing ones.
On top of that there is probably a bunch of stuff that can be added to the game.
Btw; You do not have to split the tree, it’s just one of two possible solutions. The other one would be decompressing the Mit-Tier by pushing most tanks above 7.0 two BRs up and filling the created space with the vehicles I just listed. That would be a smoother way to do it.

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The M60 also was built in 1959, 8.0 Object 297 when?

Spoiler

/s for the idiots

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Yes your big brain totally got what this is about

34

Just give up on it all and accept its just a bunch of tank shaped pixels firing at another bunch of tank shaped pixels.Just try and get the highest score you can.

Meanwhile War Thunder can pray no real competition pops up because that is how it survives.
All it takes is for another company to take the WT models and put them in the correct map environment in an nation vs nation scenario based on real battles or imaginary battles with tanks from a similar era with no BR system and it’s good night War Thunder.

It all seems so simple when you look at it.
That is why War Thunder should be doing this .

35

Worst thing about Israel is the crew.
They start off at 6.0 with a completely novice crew. That is just brutal.
Stock tank and novice crew at BR=6.0 is a recipe for disaster.

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36

With no CAS and no SPAA

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You missed the point.

And yes, heavy tanks, that are sluggish, should have a chance at surviving a side-shot from a faster and more maneuverable tank. Many maps allow quick light tanks to fully use their advantage - capping (scoring) and getting to ambush positions. How does the heavy tank get to use it’s advantage (thick armor) when almost every tank at it’s BR (and especially those that are an uptier) can even pen it from the front?

38

Gaijin decided to not care at all about time of service and puts high penning rounds in mid tier

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39

This is for reserve post war?

Stuff like the asu57, ikv72? Arl44-acl are going to fighting those?

Yes, it is annoying.

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Some examples of light tanks/tank destroyers that are relatively quick, pack a potent punch AND a quick reload (due to HEATFS and autoloaders)

T92 … Stock reload = 6.50
PT-76B … stock reload = 6.50
AMX-13-90 … = 5.0
Rakentenautomat … = 0.52
Object 906 … = 4.50

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41

I personally think this way of thinking is pretty flawed.

  • Firstly, I don’t think there is a disproportionate amount of light tanks at BRs from 5.0 to 8.0 compared to a few years ago
  • Honestly, light tanks aren’t what you make them look like they are. Taking a few exemples : ELC bis is limited by its turret rotation, weapon sway, extremely light armor, hence why it’s at 6.0. The person mentioning the itv 103 with HEAT at 4.0 definitely has never played Sweden either. Having more than 150mm of pen at this BR does not matter. And the vehicle this shell is used by definitely barely qualifies as 4.0 material. also, I want to remind that most HEAT at those BR have very poor ballistic compared to most other guns that need high velocity to achieve good penetration.
  • 6.7+ light tanks sit right at the midpoint between early and mid Cold War era. I don’t think it’s out of bounds to have them sitting where they sit
  • HEAT does pen very well, but it’s not the behold and end all. Post penetration damages aren’t the greatest. If people did not fill their IS6s full of ammo, getting them one shot would be harder (speaking from an AMX 50 surbaissé that does quite well with it). I would even say, that under 6.7, large caliber APHE are better in most aspects except for reload.
  • Honestly, what do you guys want with heavy tanks ? To be completely impenetrable by all vehicles from the front ? That would not be a fair gameplay either. I think there’s a very thin line were BR are balanced. You need counters to every vehicles. Heavies can be penned from the front from a small portion of light tanks using HEAT. Those light tanks are food for most spaas, everything with a .50 cal, 14.7mm, most medium tanks… While heavies are extremely good against medium tanks.
  • Plus, let’s be honest, the people that play heavy tanks correctly is a pretty large minority. How often do I see Russian or German heavies rushing straight to the center, full ammo, without looking left and right. Most HEAT slingers have pretty poor gun handling. If they hit you from the front, it means they were standing still right were the heavy goes to. It means that a mistake was made from the heavy. And mistakes should be punished. There’s a clear lack of situational awareness or overconfidence. While heavies are very easy to kill for flanking light tanks, there’s nothing worse for them when a heavy takes it time, keep distance, and use it’s armor and superior gun handling at long distances.

I agree that things are not perfect. BR compression is still very present (although it has been moved up from mid tier in it’s majority in my opinion), and map design is also getting worse for all gameplay as well (having corridors is bad for everyone. Light tanks can’t flank. Heavies can’t use distance to their advantage). But, in general, heavy tank meta isn’t completely gone, and is sufficiently good if you play your vehicle correctly, to not have to consider creating two whole tree lines

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42

don’t forget the M41

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Just speculation and opinion on your part.There is zero point going out in an obsolete old WW2 tank in a field of post war tanks from 20 years in the future that fire ammo with up to 400mm of pen or HE artillery that one shot anything .OK it is pretty stupid in what claims to be a realistic game but it is also game breaking.The question is this :why go out in a slow heavy tank? Barbecue you have armour that can protect you.No you dont because Gaijin filled the game with future tanks that negate you armour by some considerable margin.Why play a superheavy at 6.7 BR when a Swedish tank at 4BR can punch through 400mm of armour or speed up to you and fire five shots in ten seconds? If you were to fcae what you should be facing in that type of tank they we might be more accepting of one shot kills instead we have a one shot kill followed by a one death leave.

Most of what anybody faces in GRB is hidden so the light armour aspect is mute.
The issue is the damage they cause to heavy WW2 armour not the other way round.

Light armour and huge out of era penning power means that most of this stuff fires once then gets killed and does little for the game at mid BR except ruin it for Heavy tanks.That is why we have endless posts like this one.
Make WW2 WW2 and make the 50s a 50s game 60s a 60s game.
Is that really asking to much in 2024?