BR for TigerUHT, TigerHAD BLK2, AH129, AH-60

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

F-111C and F would have to move up with Pantsir as well as Tornadoes with GBUs, the aircraft that Pantsir is there to counter.

9 times out of 10 the Pantsir is able to deal with said opponents. Either by killing them outright or intercepting all their munitions.
The F111C and F, as well as the Tornados, would be more of an equivalent to the ADATS and ITO 90 (which both should be 11.7).

@AlvisWisla

The Z-10A is currently 11.7, and is slightly worse than the Apache.

Not really. The AKD-10s are much more usable at range, and is very useful against helicopters.
The Z-10A also gets much much better AAMs (the TY-90s and not the ATAS).

@AlvisWisla

The British Apache is firing the same weapons as the other Apaches.

Another lie. It uses hellfires AND starstreaks, which is extremely effective against SPAAs, and quite useful against planes and helicopters (given that they are within 7km).

@AlvisWisla

Anti-air in helicopters is a non-starter.
Ka-50’s anti-air capabilities is 10.3 at best, and that’s one of the best ones, so it being 11.0 doesn’t matter because at 11.0 there are better SPAA than there are anti-aircraft helicopters.
All helicopters, without exception, at and above 11.3 is well above their anti-air capabilities in BR, and thus a BR increase based on anti-air would be silly.

What a disgusting lie against the Chinese Helicopters.
The Z-10 wouldn’t be 11.7 if it only had access to 8x AKD-10s.
The Z-19 wouldn’t be 11.3 if it only had access to 8x AKD-9s.

The UHT only has access to 4x ATAS and no GUN to defend itself, meaning practically ANY jet can kill it with relative ease.

The KA-52 has access to 8x IGLAS, DIRCM, and ~550RPM 30mm BMP APDS gun that can snipe planes from ~2.5km. They are not the same in terms of self-defence.
The Z-10A’s TY-90s can kill distracted or rear-aspect opponents in majority of cases, and gets access to eight of them!

@AlvisWisla

That’d be like claiming the OTOMATIC should be 12.0 because it can take on aircraft as well as tanks, when it’s already over-BR’d from people using it well against tanks and almost nothing to do with its anti-air.

The difference between the OTOMATIC and such helis with AA capabilities is that the OTOMATIC can’t kill either effectively past 11.3, whereas helis such as the Z-10 can kill tanks, helis, and sometimes even SPAAs quite effectively… all while having the ability to defend itself from aircraft.
It’s like if the OTOMATIC was 10.3 – nobody would say the OTOMATIC isn’t great against tanks if it were at that BR, let alone being able to destroy a decent portion of aircraft at that BR.

[AlvisWisla]

@rainy2000
I am aware that there are more skilled Pantsir players than skilled CAS players, there’s a reason “Pantsir OP” was ever a narrative after it finally brought an inkling of balance to CAS. It wasn’t anywhere close to enough, but it was enough to get zombing to end.

F-111C and Tornado piloted by equal skill can never, EVER die to ADATS or ITO-90M. It’s physically impossible as those SPAA systems lack the range.

Starstreaks aren’t an air to ground missile, not sure why you’re moving the goalposts to anti-air.

Mi-35 is over-BR’d as well, helicopters BRs can be wrong.
Mi-35, Z-19, etc being over-BR’d doesn’t change reality.
Also, Z-10 would still be 11.7 with 8x AKD-10s, because the Apaches are 12.0, and AKD-10 is slightly better than AGM-114K.

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

I am aware that there are more skilled Pantsir players than skilled CAS players, there’s a reason “Pantsir OP” was ever a narrative after it finally brought an inkling of balance to CAS. It wasn’t anywhere close to enough, but it was enough to get zombing to end.

F-111C and Tornado can never, EVER die to ADATS or ITO-90M. It’s physically impossible as those SPAA systems lack the range.

Sure, they may never die if they go beyond ~7/8km, but the further away they shoot their F&F ordnance, the easier it is to intercept them on time.
And so the F-111s only being able to carry 6 mavericks (and GBUs, though they aren’t nearly as useful at such ranges), all while having to deal with one, if not two or more SPAAs, the chances that a maverick slips past is very slim, unless said SPAA players are bad (in which case, it isn’t a vehicle issue, but a skill issue).

So you can probably whittle their AAM supplies after two or more runs, but at that point the match is already over, and so they have fulfilled their role as anti-air (to prevent their tanks from exploding).

@AlvisWisla

Starstreaks aren’t an air to ground missile, not sure why you’re moving the goalposts to anti-air.

They are air-to-air that can ALSO be used as air-to-ground – specifically against SPAAs and light tanks.

@AlvisWisla

Mi-35 is over-BR’d as well, helicopters BRs can be wrong.

None of them are over-BR’d.
The Mi-35M is fine at 10.7.
If it goes to 10.3 then it would be superior to the Superhind, which doesn’t need to get moved down to 10.0.
The new 11.7 Squadron Mi-35P gets access to Vikhirs and good thermals + good RWR + good zoom + S-13OFs, which is arguably better than what the KA-50 gets in return (better FM, and access to 30mm 550RPM BMP APDS), which is at 11.3.

@AlvisWisla

Mi-35, Z-19, etc being over-BR’d doesn’t change reality.

Z-19 isn’t over-BR’d.
It’s extremely maneuverable, the AKD-9s are good, and you still get access to 8x TY-90s along side them.
Besides, it’s basically a direct upgrade over the Z-9WA, which is 11.0, and shouldn’t go to 10.7 since it’s better than the G-LYNX in most ways.

@AlvisWisla

Also, Z-10 would still be 11.7 with 8x AKD-10s, because the Apaches are 12.0, and AKD-10 is slightly better than AGM-114K.

The non-British 12.0 Apaches should go to 11.7 anyways. The 16x Hellfire IIs + 4x ATAS aren’t enough to warrant such a high BR, especially when the AH-64A is at 11.7 anyways (though could honestly move down to 11.3 but I won’t make that argument) with the same properties except with Hellfire Bs (Not a huge improvement over the Ks), slightly worse RWR, and no AN/APG-78 radar (which is not a great / useful radar mind you).

[Normandy_Corsair]

Funny but you don’t play helicopters to know how bad the experience is

[rainy2000]

Really depends on the helicopter to be honest…

[Normandy_Corsair]

95% of them are terrible in WT, the other 5% are insanely overpowered

[rainy2000]

Almost all them really suck when stock, and it’s a pain in the ass to get them spaded, but I’d say it’s definitely less than 95% that are terrible and I’m pretty sure that there are more than just 5% that are insanely overpowered.

[Normandy_Corsair]

The only overpowered helicopters are the 13.0 ones that have DIRCM + FNF missiles. Most are very weak/mid even when spaded

[rainy2000]

Really depends on the map and whether or not it’s an uptier.
The Ka-52, Ka-50, British Apache, Mi-35P, Z-19, Z-10, Rooivalk, and possibly the Mi-35M, Mi-28N and MI-8 AMTSH-VN are all very good helicopters if played right. I’d even say the 11.3 / 11.7 Apaches too and maybe the G-LYNX, A-129CBT, Tiger HAD, and MH-60L DAP. They can only really be killed by immense number of SPAAs or aircraft (at least with some of them).

[Normandy_Corsair]

@rainy2000

are all very good helicopters if played right.

Sure. they fall under “strong CAS”, not “overpowered CAS” unlike the 13.0 helis or some fixed wing jets

@rainy2000

British Apache

Why are half of these here though. The only helis I agree are very strong outright are the Kamovs and Havocs.

[rainy2000]

@Normandy_Corsair

they fall under “strong CAS”, not “overpowered CAS” like the 13.0 helis

@Normandy_Corsair

The only overpowered helicopters are the 13.0 ones that have DIRCM + FNF missiles.

So the 13.0 ones aren’t ‘overpowered’?

@Normandy_Corsair

Why are half of these here though. The only helis I agree are very strong outright are the Kamovs and Havocs.

Most people don’t know how to use SAL + IOG AGMs properly / effectively so they have a high skill ceiling and low skill floor.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@rainy2000

So the 13.0 ones aren’t ‘overpowered’?

I meant to type unlike

[rainy2000]

I mean, the 13.0 helis are quite OP but they still get countered by top tier aircraft relatively easily.

[Normandy_Corsair]

I don’t see that. Helis have autoaim guns preventing you from adequately going for guns on them, they have DIRCM for IR missiles, and they dont often get tracked well by radar missiles due to multipathing or “notching” PD by being static. If you have a kh-38mt like missile then yeah you can hit them with that, but thats only specific aircraft

[rainy2000]

Laser and TV-guided ordnance still work against them, such as Maverick Bs, Brimstones, and laser Hammers.

[Normandy_Corsair]

uhm

@Normandy_Corsair

If you have a kh-38mt like missile then yeah you can hit them with that, but thats only specific aircraft

[rainy2000]

The MT is an IR missile.

[Tank_Guy]

rooivalk is a very good heli with a little better “hellfire”, but its still not on pair with a Ka-52…

If gaijin model Vihkirs proper aerodyimics and not the very precise fly path that it has right now, i may agree.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

That doesnt make them less guilty

[Normandy_Corsair]

Of what