Begleitpanzer 57 to 10.3 like the 2s38

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

I was disappointed in how hard it was to kill Leopards, even from the side. I started shooting their barrel off and then going for the engine, of course if the opportunity was there. Then they can only look at you wasting 4-5 rounds in order to kill them.

Yup, and that’s where the lack of ammo really becomes an issue, like you said here:

@MotorolaCRO

my bigger concern was the amount of ammo it has.

@MotorolaCRO

How much better that new round would be ?

Apparently around 350mm (on the low end) and around 430mm (on the high end) of flat pen, which is a lot better.
With that round, you can more consistently get the breech / LFP of tanks, and more easily go through side armour without the possiblity of partial penetration.
I think it would be more appropriate to keep it at 11.7 or possibly even 12.0 at that point.

@MotorolaCRO

I’d still say getting faster reload would be more beneficial, it’s still 75mm gun at the end of the day. I don’t think that thing will ever have decent spall.

Yes, I don’t think much more spalling would occur with that round, but I think ammo detonation and taking out crew with near misses / direct hits.
Maybe the 1.0s reload is better, but I think the former would be better for it.

@MotorolaCRO

Centauro has around 19 HP/t, so unless you’re on paved road your mobility will be in line with like 9.3 - 9.7 MBTs.

Fair enough. I am thinking more of top speed (which is 110km/h) more than its acceleration. Of course, the CV90120 with its 29hp/ton takes the cake.
The Centauro (from my experience) seems to be more survivable than the CV90120, at least.

@MotorolaCRO

Yeah, Japanese MBTs with 4s reload should be better at flanking in most cases. I’ll rather fire one Type 10 round than two and a half XM885s in most cases as well.

Agreed.

@MotorolaCRO

Yeah I’m aware of that, but if vehicle is struggling I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t get better reload speed. This should be a perfect stop-gap measure until BR is changed or new ammo is added.

Fair enough.

@MotorolaCRO

Fuel tanks and most other modules behind little to no armor (side shots for example) shouldn’t be able to send top tier rounds into the void, especially those small fuel tanks found on the sides. At least that what I’d think.

Agreed.

@MotorolaCRO

Sometimes that added TD ability will put your vehicle in a BR where it isn’t able to defend itself from air threats, which just sucks.

I can understand that.

@MotorolaCRO

And ItPsV, 8.7 SPAA that has APDS and Leopard hull with 30.5 HP/t. This thing is probably the worst nightmare of stuff with little to no armor.

Yes, that too.

@MotorolaCRO

OTOMATIC without darts could be as low as 10.3, considering you’ll have 9040C with radar, HE-VT, darts and good thermals at same BR. It’s HE-VT is not as strong but I think it has more than enough advantages to compensate for that.

Fair enough, although if we don’t give anti-tank ammo to all SPAA, I don’t think they’d be at the same BR as one another.
(Maybe the Lvkv9040C would be at 9.7 or 9.3)

@MotorolaCRO

I highly doubt 11.3 helicopters won’t be able to outrange Type 81C.

Optical tracking can be used against helicopters, and from my experience, they can track helicopters from up to 5/7km or so, which is good against most helicopters other than Z-10’s AKD-10s (11.7), Rooivalk’s Mokopas (11.7), and of course the vikhirs from the Mi-28NM, Ka-52 (both 12.0), and Ka-50. The Ka-50 is at 11.3, and is the only helicopter I think the Type 81 should be worried about. Thankfully, it doesn’t get thermals or good zoom.

@MotorolaCRO

OTOMATIC struggles against jets, you simply can’t have the whole package in these two. Meanwhile that “whole package” is sitting just a 0.3 BR above them.

Fair enough, although again, the Otomatic is a better anti-tank than any of the 11.7 SPAA (other than maybe the ADATS).

The ADATS is pretty much better than the otomatic in every way (other than maybe dealing with helicopters), and it’s only a 0.3 BR higher. I personally think it might be a bit too good to be at 11.7, but I don’t think it should be the same BR as the Pantsir, despite it being much better at dealing with ground vehicles than the two.

The Pantsir is fully stabilized, and has much better missiles (and more of them) for anti-air duty, as well as better guns for engaging aircraft, and for countering AGMs / GBUs. The radar it gets is also incredibly good.

I can see the ITO and ADATS being the same BR, though.
Maybe moving the ADATS to 12.0, with the ITO, and move the Pantsir to 12.3 would be more appropriate, but I think that would require ground decompression once again, and who knows when that will happen.

[rainy2000]

I don’t think a bagel with sabot would be even close to 11.0+. If anything, 10.3 or maybe 10.7.
And the regular bagel should just be 9.7 for the time being while they decompress the BRs again so that 9.3s don’t curbstomp 8.3s anymore.

[Pangolin_Fan]

With sabots, it could easily go to 11.0 as it eliminates it’s only flaw. As it is right now, 10.0 would be a fitting BR.

[rainy2000]

It’s only flaw is that it can’t go head-on with MBTs (especially Russian MBTs). No tandem warhead means that you are stuck with trying to barrel them, or hope to flank them.
It’s also not particularly fast either (in terms of top speed, reverse speed, and acceleration), at least for an 11.0 light tank.
It may be better than the 2S38 in quite a few aspects, though, but worse in others.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

Apparently around 350mm (on the low end) and around 430mm (on the high end) of flat pen, which is a lot better.

That’s not bad at all. I’d like to see that + 1s reload thing happening so we can put HSTV-L at 12.0.

@rainy2000

Maybe the 1.0s reload is better, but I think the former would be better for it.

Considering it’s already a barely 11.7 vehicle, I’d say add both and push it up to max BR.

@rainy2000

Fair enough. I am thinking more of top speed (which is 110km/h) more than its acceleration. Of course, the CV90120 with its 29hp/ton takes the cake.
The Centauro (from my experience) seems to be more survivable than the CV90120, at least.

That top speed is just a wet dream for most wheeled vehicles on most terrains. I’d much rather have tracked one with 29 HP/t and 70km/h than 19HP/t and 110km/h top speed.
Centauro should be a bit more survivable because it has one more crew, but for the most part shooting both in the turret with detonate their ammo and that’s it.

@rainy2000

Fair enough, although if we don’t give anti-tank ammo to all SPAA, I don’t think they’d be at the same BR as one another.
(Maybe the Lvkv9040C would be at 9.7 or 9.3)

I think 9.3 would be a better bet, considering you have M247 at 9.0 which has better HE-VT, more ammo and better fire rate. It can also somewhat engage ground units with it’s rounds, meanwhile 9040C without darts would be pretty bad at that.

@rainy2000

Optical tracking can be used against helicopters, and from my experience, they can track helicopters from up to 5/7km or so

You can lock them up with your IRT, but the question is will the seeker on the missile itself lock the target from 5/7km away so you can actually fire ?

@rainy2000

The ADATS is pretty much better than the otomatic in every way (other than maybe dealing with helicopters), and it’s only a 0.3 BR higher. I personally think it might be a bit too good to be at 11.7, but I don’t think it should be the same BR as the Pantsir, despite it being much better at dealing with ground vehicles than the two.

In my opinion a big compression is in place for higher/top tier AAs. ADATS is much better than OTOMATIC, but Pantsir is much better than ADATS as well. We really need 12.3 or even better, 12.7 to properly BR place all those higher/top tier AAs.

@rainy2000

I don’t think a bagel with sabot would be even close to 11.0+. If anything, 10.3 or maybe 10.7.

Would that sabot be more powerful than that found on 2S38 ?

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

That’s not bad at all. I’d like to see that + 1s reload thing happening so we can put HSTV-L at 12.0.

I think 1.0s reload alone would be 11.7 worthy.
I think giving it Delta 6 alone would be 12.0 worthy.

@MotorolaCRO

Considering it’s already a barely 11.7 vehicle, I’d say add both and push it up to max BR.

But giving it both may just be too powerful imo.

@MotorolaCRO

That top speed is just a wet dream for most wheeled vehicles on most terrains. I’d much rather have tracked one with 29 HP/t and 70km/h than 19HP/t and 110km/h top speed.
Centauro should be a bit more survivable because it has one more crew, but for the most part shooting both in the turret with detonate their ammo and that’s it.

Fair enough.

@MotorolaCRO

You can lock them up with your IRT, but the question is will the seeker on the missile itself lock the target from 5/7km away so you can actually fire ?

Yes.

@MotorolaCRO

In my opinion a big compression is in place for higher/top tier AAs. ADATS is much better than OTOMATIC, but Pantsir is much better than ADATS as well. We really need 12.3 or even better, 12.7 to properly BR place all those higher/top tier AAs.

Yeah, I guess we’ll just have to wait for more decompression to come around.

@MotorolaCRO

Would that sabot be more powerful than that found on 2S38 ?

I think it would be quite similar. I mean, they’re both 57mms, but I think the 2S38 would have the better round / velocity (and therefore penetration) due to the gun’s design.
The Bagel has a better firerate though, which is 0.3s instead of 0.5s.
I think they’d be just as good as one another.
2S38 gets better acceleration, reverse speed, a somewhat invincible turret, and gun elevation, whereas the Bagel gets an ATGM (which is kinda useless past 10.0 to be honest), better gun depression, and slightly better armour.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

But giving it both may just be too powerful imo.

Yeah it’s hard to know without trying it out first, it’s always easy to revert back reload speed changes if it’s too OP.

@rainy2000

Yes.

That’s interesting. I’ve seen people post videos of them not being able to lock helicopters that are much closer than 5-7km, even with photo contrast mode.

@rainy2000

I think they’d be just as good as one another.

Agreed.
Bagel with a dart should be a direct counterpart to 2S38.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

That’s interesting. I’ve seen people post videos of them not being able to lock helicopters that are much closer than 5-7km, even with photo contrast mode.

Maps actually affect how far away you can launch the missiles.
From what I can remember, IR lock can depend on the temperature of the map, so it’s easier to lock onto helicopters on sands of sinai than artic base etc.
And optical lock can depend on the weather (like if it’s thunderclouds etc).

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

From what I can remember, IR lock can depend on the temperature of the map, so it’s easier to lock onto helicopters on sands of sinai than artic base etc.

Are you sure it’s not the other way around ?
I guess engines should appear “hotter” when the outside temperature is lower.

@rainy2000

And optical lock can depend on the weather (like if it’s thunderclouds etc).

I’ve heard it only works when they have clear sky as a background, otherwise it gets pretty funky.

So all in all, it’s still pretty inconsistent.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

I guess engines should appear “hotter” when the outside temperature is lower.

At the same time, cooler temperatures mean that the engines are cooler in general.

@MotorolaCRO

So all in all, it’s still pretty inconsistent.

Yeah.

[Pangolin_Fan]

With APFSDS, 10.0 would be too low. 11.0 would be fine.

[AlvisWisla]

As “mid” as the 2S38 and HSTVL.

@Pangolin_Fan

With APFSDS, 10.0 would be too low. 11.0 would be fine.

10.7, but yeah. TOWs only make it slightly better than 2S38 if both have APFSDS.
Of course I’ve personally yet to see evidence of APFSDS for Begleit.

[rainy2000]

2S38 is not 10.0, it’s 10.3.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

At the same time, cooler temperatures mean that the engines are cooler in general.

Aren’t engines supposed to operate at a certain temperature for various reasons in all conditions, with cooling system being in charge of keeping that temperature in check by increasing/decreasing flow of coolant through it’s core ?
If this is true, engine core and exhaust gases pushed into the surrounding air (if exhaust pipe is short enough) should have pretty similar temperature regardless of the environment.

@rainy2000

Yeah

I guess that’s better than nothing, most IRs struggle to lock past 3km which is nuts.

[rainy2000]

@MotorolaCRO

If this is true, engine core and exhaust gases pushed into the surrounding air (if exhaust pipe is short enough) should have pretty similar temperature regardless of the environment.

Well, I’m not sure exactly how they had implemented it, but I know (based on experience) that colder environments tend to make them harder to lock on with IR missiles.

They had also changed how they are picked up on thermals, so maybe this also affects their thermal signature levels for the IR seeker too.

[MotorolaCRO]

@rainy2000

Well, I’m not sure exactly how they had implemented it, but I know (based on experience) that colder environments tend to make them harder to lock on with IR missiles.

I’m not really familiar with their coding either but that seems counter-intuitive, at least in my eyes.

[Pangolin_Fan]

ok?

[Armen_Lozone]

@AlvisWisla

As “mid” as the 2S38 and HSTVL.

@AlvisWisla

TOWs only make it slightly better than 2S38 if both have APFSDS.

hmm…

@AlvisWisla

Of course I’ve personally yet to see evidence of APFSDS for Begleit.

i would advise you to scan the rest of this discussion or similar discussions, then
you’re in the germany discord, we have a whole thread on this.

ykw here you go

Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@rainy2000

At the same time, cooler temperatures mean that the engines are cooler in general.

Not enough to be noticeable.

For traditional radiator controlled engines, your thermostat will be cycling the same temperature fluid once it’s up to temp unless it’s so cold outside it can’t get/maintain the thermostat to open fully, or so hot that the radiator is in over temp regardless of OAT

For Turbine engines, they’re mostly. Maintained by some sort of engine control module that keeps them running at about the same temp most of the time.

The only real difference will be the difference between them and the surrounding conditions.

[AK_Awful_Waffle]

@MotorolaCRO

Aren’t engines supposed to operate at a certain temperature for various reasons in all conditions, with cooling system being in charge of keeping that temperature in check by increasing/decreasing flow of coolant through it’s core ?
If this is true, engine core and exhaust gases pushed into the surrounding air (if exhaust pipe is short enough) should have pretty similar temperature regardless of the environment.

rainy2000:

You are more or less correct. In cold weather a IR seeker will be more effective. WT has just badly implemented / coded them, especially in regards to non HIRSS equipped helicopters.