10.0 would be fine
I think that’s way too high. It doesn’t get APFSDS, nor is its ATGM tandem.
It doesn’t need sabots or tandem. It’s already a rat vehicle.
A rat vehicle suitable for 9.3 / 9.7, not 10.0.
The ZBD is better than it in many ways.
9.3, and even 9.7 are far too low for the light tanks it faces. There’s no reason for things like bradley or M551 to go against the bagel
Bradley and M551 wouldn’t face it if it were 9.7, which was what I was suggesting.
Plus M551 shouldn’t be 8.3 anyways. It should really be 8.0.
those were just an example. There’s plenty of 8.7s that don’t even come close to the bagel that it faces.
So it can kill 8.7 light tanks effectively, and kill 8.7 MBTs from the side somewhat well. Good for it, I guess?
This is a full downtier, and stuff like that can happen.
Let me give you an example:
Olifant Mk.2 is 9.3, with Gen 2 thermals, decent turret armour in a full downtier, 6.7s reload with DM63, ESS, and fairly good reverse speed.
It is practically better than the T-55A (which is 8.3) in almost every single way.
Are you going to ask for it to be moved up too?
How about the AMX-32 (120), or the CM11, or the Merkava Mk 1/2B? - all being significantly better than the T-55A, or practically any 8.3 MBT.
If anything, this is just a compression issue at 8.3 - 9.3. The bagel is not the only thing that’s the problem.
a unstabilzed tank to 10.3 …
It’s fully stabilized.
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It would perform perfectly fine at 10.0. Taken as it oppresses alot of lower BR tanks, there’s no reason not to move it up.
Ah yes, let’s put the T32 from 7.3 to 8.0. Taken as it oppresses a lot of lower BR tanks, there’s no reason to not move it up.
That’s a crappy comparison. T32 would perform poorly at 8.0. Bagel would perform perfectly fine at 10.0.
According to you.
The ZBD is better than the Bagel, and they shouldn’t be at the same BR.
And until you have proven to me that they are just as good, your claim here:
Is just as good as mine:
People are still moaning about the BagelPanzer? It’s a legitimately mid vehicle.
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I never expected to see OHK machine from a 75mm gun. If we set realistic expectations less chance we’re going to get frustrated. HSTV-L looks like a perfect example of a vehicle that should play like a rat and ambush people in order to work properly. You’ll simply need some extra time to kill an enemy in those low-caliber rats vehicles. Problem here is that maps often make life difficult for them.
It isn’t easy but if you have a little bit of time to aim, no reason to not go for it.
In my opinion Centauro suffers from the “nothing special” syndrome much more than CV 90120. It has manual loading with 5s reload at best. It’s mobility is meh at best, has decent thermals, meh gun handling and meh optics. The round it fires is also nothing special and has literally no armor.
So, what’s the point in taking Centauro over something like M1s ? It has scout drone and scouting while it’s worse/same in literally everything else.
At least CV 90120 has pretty good mobility.
Fire rate is always good but as your ambush gets better the importance of fire rate reduces. Top tier tanks (when aced) take more than two seconds to turn their turrets 90 degrees + the time to spot you. I think on a decent side-on ambush you’ll have 2-3 free shots before the enemy can fire back.
True, most weakspots will be more or less the same, but in my opinion if you don’t kill/disable MBTs in a second or so you’re dead. That’s why I’d always aim for the gun if I expect frontal engagement. Against most MBTs from the front you can only do that, disable the gun and spam turret ring or LFP until it’s dead.
I’ve heard something that HSTV-L can reload in 1s, not 1.5s. Would like to know if that’s really true because that change would definitely help in those situations.
Classic Gaijin compression having Ariete/Challenger/Merkava at the same BR as 2A7V/122+/BVM.
Typical bugs for the most part.
I’ve noticed external fuel tanks on the front/side of many tanks can eat shells whole and just cause a fire that you don’t even need FPE to extinguish. Stuff like that needs to get looked into.
Forgot about ammo crates, my bad. You’ll also need time to build and fully resupply which is far worse than having 24 rounds outright.
Also, who needs darts when you can overpressure with HE-VT.
When I spawn an SPAA I want to engage CAS effectively, not ground units. This is why I don’t like to see SPAAs with quasi-TD abilities. They get pushed up in BR excessively because of that.
I also think that thing is slightly too high.
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Lets give it the 57mm APFSDS, then.
:)))
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Sure, but I do expect them to kill crew members that I am aiming at, at the very least.
That and a round through the ammo should be a guaranteed kill (at least for Russian / Chinese / British MBTs), not something out of chance.
It looks like it, but it definitely isn’t as good as people make it out to be, like I have shown previously.
Time that you may not be able to have. There often are situations where there is simply not enough time to kill them. Either they are able to show their front plate towards you in time, or they shrug your shot off and shoot you back. It’s much easier to completely disable a tank with the 2S38’s 0.5s reload than 1.5s, as in that 1.5s, a lot can happen.
One of the problems for these types of vehicles, for sure. But I think a better round is all that it really needs to stay competitve. That or a lower BR.
If you do have a bit of time, I think going for the engine and then the barrel is probably the safest way to use the limited ammo supply, although outright penning and killing them would just be prefered, like what you may be suggesting.
I wouldn’t say it’s great, but I wouldn’t say it’s terrible. Like you said, it’s nothing too special, but both have a nice 5s reload (although 5s are getting increasingly more common amongst MBTs).
Both are quite fast, although their mobility is similar to the faster MBTs (such as the Type 10s, ZTZ99As and Leclercs).
Yes, their main advantage over the M1s is that they can scout and have scout drones, but I agree that most MBTs are better than them (other than maybe the Arietes).
In a way, I think they should’ve stayed at 11.3 too.
Unfortunately, that is usually not the case. Most maps are close-quarters, and the possibility of a successful flank (with little to no armour nor damage to compensate) makes them fairly rare.
What I often find is that you can get a good flank on a couple targets, and either have the first shot non-pen on the side, or not deal enough damage to completely make them inoperable, or manage to disable them completly but couldn’t kill them fast enough before the other realises and helps their friendly out.
Like I said again, Type 90 is better suited to this sort of gameplay, and its only problem is that it cannot go hull-down nearly as well as the HSTV-L (although hull-down positions on maps are rare too).
Yes, and that is what I do too. This is where the extra firerate that the 2S38 has would be handy.
[quote=“MotorolaCRO, post:237, topic:169362”]
Against most MBTs from the front you can only do that, disable the gun and spam turret ring or LFP until it’s dead.
Agreed.
There are many reasons why certain vehicles don’t get their ‘accurate’ reloading speed, and most of it comes down to balancing, and what they think is appropriate. Things like the Leopards can reload 5s or quicker, and the Type 90s can apparently reload at a rate of 3.4s, but they don’t in-game in the name of balance. Maybe Gaijin would do that, but they may think of changing other things first, like the BR of it, or maybe the Delta 6 round.
I wouldn’t say those are bugs, but probably more like intended features. The autoloader is a module, so fragments and the round itself may get absorbed. Same with engine modules, the breech, and, of course, the fuel tanks you were talking about.
Yes, that is true. But again, at least it’s better than only 12. xD
Well, I don’t think quasi-TD abilities is necessarily a bad thing. I like to be able to defend myself in an SPAA when needed, or act like a TD if I do not have enough SP to spawn anything else in.
Good TD SPAA examples are stuff like the AMX-13 DCA 40, M19A1, ZA-35, Falcon, Gepard, ADATS, Otomatic, etc…
I am sure that if you remove their ability to deal with ground, they would go slightly lower in battle rating, but I don’t think that’s entirely worth it.
Let’s take the Otomatic as an example:
If it didn’t have its SAP / APFSDS to kill MBTs / light tanks (other than overpressuring with HE), it would probably be moved down to 11.0 or maybe 10.7. But I doubt it would go any lower, as then the ability to be an SPAA would be too great, as you’d be facing A-10s at 10.7, and simply AV-8s with bombs at 9.7. Maybe an AYIT with mavericks and walleyes / Hunter F.58 with mavericks in a 9.7 full downtier too.
I think the former feels more unique (and perhaps more useful), but that is just a preference in the end.
Not only that, but I believe CAS jets, like the Mirage2000D-R1, should be at 11.7 instead of 11.3, and Gaijin made it so that GBUs are easier to detonate, which would help out the Otomatic to be a bit more viable.
Well, I partially agree with that, but I also have to state that you must be very careful of staying inside the range of 10km with pretty much any jet (and sometimes even helicopters) that you are flying when Japan is on the enemy team. There is not much to tell you that there is a Type 81 in the area (no radar lock, etc), and once the Type 81 shoots, it’s almost always a game over unless you are outside of its range. The Type 81 does not have to guide it in like all the other top-tier SPAAs, and does not need LOS to hit you after it launches.
It being only 0.3 from the Pantsir and Ito didn’t really make all that much sense to me, but now they’re 0.7 BR higher.
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We can agree on that. Smaller caliber guns have lackluster spalling across the board, which can be problematic higher up.
Considering Gaijin is adding like 200 Leopards each update, it’s efficiency is decreasing, slowly but surely.
I was disappointed in how hard it was to kill Leopards, even from the side. I started shooting their barrel off and then going for the engine, of course if the opportunity was there. Then they can only look at you wasting 4-5 rounds in order to kill them.
How much better that new round would be ?
I’d still say getting faster reload would be more beneficial, it’s still 75mm gun at the end of the day. I don’t think that thing will ever have decent spall.
Centauro has around 19 HP/t, so unless you’re on paved road your mobility will be in line with like 9.3 - 9.7 MBTs.
Yeah, Japanese MBTs with 4s reload should be better at flanking in most cases. I’ll rather fire one Type 10 round than two and a half XM885s in most cases as well.
Yeah I’m aware of that, but if vehicle is struggling I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t get better reload speed. This should be a perfect stop-gap measure until BR is changed or new ammo is added.
Fuel tanks and most other modules behind little to no armor (side shots for example) shouldn’t be able to send top tier rounds into the void, especially those small fuel tanks found on the sides. At least that what I’d think.
Indeed, a welcomed change for OTOMATIC.
Sometimes that added TD ability will put your vehicle in a BR where it isn’t able to defend itself from air threats, which just sucks.
And ItPsV, 8.7 SPAA that has APDS and Leopard hull with 30.5 HP/t. This thing is probably the worst nightmare of stuff with little to no armor.
OTOMATIC without darts could be as low as 10.3, considering you’ll have 9040C with radar, HE-VT, darts and good thermals at same BR. It’s HE-VT is not as strong but I think it has more than enough advantages to compensate for that.
Yeah it’s an IR slinger but those are infamously bad against helicopters. I highly doubt 11.3 helicopters won’t be able to outrange Type 81C. It struggles against helicopters, OTOMATIC struggles against jets, you simply can’t have the whole package in these two. Meanwhile that “whole package” is sitting just a 0.3 BR above them.
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Germany isn’t my main nation so I can’t say this for sure, but Germany has far more use for a normal 10.0 Bagel than they have for an 11.0+ Bagel with sabots