Meanwhile, Ka-52 IRL:
In-game: Gen 2+
That photo does not prove what generation the Ka-52’s thermal system is. When using digital zoom for long range, image quality deteriorates significantly.
Also, all helicopters have Gen 3 thermal.
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Theres a good chance the Ka-52 uses 3rd gen thermals irl, but by game definition up until now, where thermals generation was dictated by resolution, theres a good chance no russian vehicles should get anything above 2nd gen. Arguing this point is disengenuous seeing as until recently, Russia was still using Catherine Fc/Xp, which we know the resolution of and is just below ingame gen 2 thermals. When they started producing their own as a replacement (PNM-T) the resolution dropped further, to near gen 1 levels in-game.
Its disingenuous to pretend this isn’t true, and the fact combine harvesters were mistaken for western tanks just proves the fact their resolution isn’t particularly fantastic.
We’ve already argued over the fact that by current in-game standards, all russian tanks should have their thermal gen dropped to Gen 2, and you’ve already said you’d instead try to get the 2PL buffed to gen 3 instead. There’s no point in you arguing here, as I’m just comparing in-game footage vs irl footage.
Thats just false, they have Gen 2+ thermals which isnt quite gen 3, which actually leads into another funny point, the Russian tree, with its inconsistant and quite frankly hilarious implementation of thermals, has many inconsistencies, most notably;
- The 2S6 with the 2S6M (1990) modification gets gen 3 thermals, while the Pantsir S1 (2008) gets gen 2. This implies the soviets were ~20 years ahead of Russia in thermals technology, if not further, seeing as afaik, the Pantsir S1 thermals arent even russian made…
- The T-72B3 UBH gets Gen 2 thermals while the T-80BVM gets gen 3 despite both tanks using Sosna-U gunners sight.
- The 2S25M and 2S38 get gen 3, presumably because they’re “new” and so despite their being, afaik, no information on their optics, its been assumed they get gen 3 gunner/commanders
Not sure why but reply isn’t displaying properly, so here’s the rest of it:
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Catherine XP is implemented in the game as the 3rd Gen. you can see in Crotale NG.
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And, Ka-52, Mi-28N/NM, AH-64, AH-1Z, EC-665, and Lynx all have the same quality thermal. AH-1S/F is the only helicopter that has a 2+ Gen thermal, Problem is that the AH-64A, Lynx, and AH-1F should all have 1st Gen thermal.
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Game has a 2S6M1 that was upgraded in 2003, not a 2S6M. But given that it’s a 2003 upgrade, it seems excessive that it’s 3rd gen. I’ll look into this.
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T-72B3 in the game is a 2011 model, which used a 2nd Gen Catherine FC thermal. The T-80BVM is at least a 2018 model and uses the 3rd gen thermal, ФЭМ18М.
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ФЭМ18М-03 thermal used by 2S38 is the 3rd generation, 2S25M needs investigation
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Am I correct in reading that as the resolution being 256x320?
Photodetector format
I’ve double checked and you’re correct on this one, it must’ve changed since I last checked, sorry for the accusation.
The UBH modification on the T-72B3 is a 2016 modification as per its own devblog:
Spoiler
It does still seem to use Catherine FC though.
The ФЭМ18М sight has a stated resolution of 640x512 if Im reading this correctly, which still makes it lower than in-game gen 2 sights. If rounded to the closest generation in-game, it would be a gen 1 sight. If rounded up, itd be gen 2.
As an aside, from my understanding, the T-80BVM, the T-90M, and the T-72B3UBH all use the Sosna-U, which either uses Catherine-Fc or PNM-T, which are similar, but with Catherine-Fc being superior.
Although I have heard of russia acquiring Catherine-XP, I have never seen anything stating they use them in their tanks, only that they planned to use them, although I could be wrong. With even T-90M being confirmed to use the PNM-T analogous to an inferior Catherine-Fc
Spoiler
As previously stated, Catherine-XP is still inferior in resolution in-game to gen 2 thermals:
Spoiler
I can’t find the resolution regarding the ФЭМ18М-03 unfortunately.
For whatever reason, my quote function is broken
4/5 of those are data tape recordings.
The what looks like a photograph of the screen doesn’t prove anything.
Sniper pod data tape recordings are just as bad:
In game T-80BVM and Sprut-SDM1 are using sight with with 3rd gen 640x512 format FEM18M-03 photodetector matrix allegedly with µscanner that gives it output resolution of 1280x1024 (Same story as with Catherine MP).
For ATTICA
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PNM-T is name of sight same as Sosna-U. Catherine (and TPK-K also) is only name of thermal imager. Sosna-U/PNM-T are using Catherine FC (built pre ~2014) imager and imagers based on FEM10M (Belarus-Russian made copy of Sofradir 288х4 used in Catherine FC) and FEM18M-03 (Russian 3rd gen matrix photodetector).
Leopard 2’s ATTICA (as of now) is based solely around an LWIR camera with a 640x512 detector elements array, and is interlaced for a higher final pixel output.
Right now KMW is preparing an upgrade to ATTICA M-2 with a 1280x1024 detector array for the Leopard 2A7V and Leopard 2A8 (unknown what Leopard 2Ax will receive).
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Which is only 30 pixels difference to the Leopard 2’s WBG X which is gen 1 in game.
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Do you have anything to show that the ФЭМ18М is a third gen thermal or is this just a trust me kinda thing? I am interested in learning more about this thermal because everything I can find on it doesn’t sound exceptional.
FEM18M-03 this is a 3rd generation matrix with a physical resolution of 640x512 and with a final image size on a monitor of 1280x1024 pixels (with microscanning)…
Spoiler
Новинки с выставки. ТВП - Andrei-bt — LiveJournal
Тепловизионные матрицы российского производства для военной техники : bmpd — ЖЖ
For example, the 3rd generation Polish camera…Thermal Imaging Camera | Optronics, Surveillance And Sighting Systems | Pco S.a.
On the T-90M and T-14 other cameras…
Россия отстала в области «технического зрения» для бронетехники? Так ли это на самом деле? Часть вторая. | Армия и технологии | Дзен
Interesting I appreciate the sources.
It does leave a few questions as to what makes this a third gen in Gaijins eyes. While giving certain thermals listed in one of your T90 sources said to be third gen but are second gen in WT.
- The game has its own Universal table for generations of thermal imagers that does not take into account many nuances and technical characteristics…
- PNM-T is installed on the T-90M from 2022 and how it differs from PNM Sosna-U is still unknown (there are only a couple of photos and data from exhibitions in the analysis of online publications on the Internet)… and on Sosna-U there is detailed information from the Textbook…
- I don’t know for sure, but in my opinion, the characteristics of thermal imaging sights for tank commanders are also not separately modeled in the game…
I’ve seen this mentioned in here twice but I haven’t seen a single source with it. Where does this come from?
You misunderstood the semantic expression, although I put brackets there for a reason ()…
- it was necessary to write like this _… "optionally in 3rd generation TPV, a microscanior-
the main purpose of which is to improve image quality (resolution), but single-
temporarily this leads to an increase in the cost of the device, bringing it closer to the cost of devices of the 2nd
generations with a scanner… " - you also probably confuse the physical resolution of the matrix and the resulting image on the monitor of the thermal imager…
- The resulting image on the monitor of the thermal imager in HD resolution can also be obtained by hardware and software.
For example, Upsampling a signal from a DVD disk (480p/576p resolution rose to 1080p) back in 2006 in DVD players… - If you want to know more try to translate this document…
2011_ПОКОЛЕНИЯ ТЕПЛОВИЗОРОВ.zip (326.2 KB)