that’s a massive wall of copium. e^∞ hours played and zuddy still doesn’t understand that the roles of the tomcat and the f16a block 10 are completely opposite.
bro just wait for the patch, the flight model gets updated and all your claims go to gulag since it rivals mig 29 and beats it in 2 circle
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2*
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i’ve only lost a dogfight on f16, i once got harassed by a mig23 ML and spent all my advantage on notching an r24r then the mig29 i was rinsing eventually shot me down with the gun. Other than that, even now the f16 just out dogfights everything, even some props without extending away.
u can chaff those bruh, mig 23 dont have PD radar
it has MTI radar, which is horrible at picking targets but doesn’t see chaff either.
dw most people dont use it
most people what? Blud, the floor is full of mig23’ MLs slinging r24r’s around.
Yes, your entire thread is a massive wall of copium and complaints about one of the best fighters at top tier which is more than useful, it’s the meta.
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where copium?
Starts with OP, continues with every post by OP
The OP’s initial points;
1.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1152954730222469240/image.png
Congratulations, it is not the only top tier without a fox-1. Other top tiers do just fine without them as well.
2.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1152954971935998083/image.png
Your argument is essentially “AIM-9L is vastly inferior to the R-60M (l0l)”… no. It most certainly is not inferior to the R-60M. In fact, it’s worse in every possible way. The R-60M can only beat the AIM-9L in maneuverability or acceleration when launched at very low speeds as they missile suffers from speed compression quite badly otherwise. The acceleration difference only matters when you’re within R-60M range to begin with, seeing as the angry moth has nearly 1/3 the overall range of the AIM-9L… this is severely disadvantageous at top tier.
3.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1152955647701295124/image.png
And your third argument… is pro F-16? It goes to show that the aircraft is perfectly capable. The AoA limitation you speak of is super advantageous as it prevents you from burning energy by turning too tight a radius or too many G’s. The next patch amends this and allows for more AoA in mouse aim… but I’m not certain it will last. Regardless, the aircraft is more than capable of fighting any adversary it should face currently and going into the future. It’s in a really good position.
4.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1152956012635103414/image.png
One could argue that the Python 3s have a larger minimum engagement range thanks to the acceleration, it is not as simple as it seems. They are a better missile, but that doesn’t mean the AIM-9L is suddenly terrible just because something else is better. The same way the R-60M is usable, the AIM-9L is more than sufficient. No one is going to be killing you simply because they’re equipped with a Python 3 unless you let them. They’re not at some serious advantage because of it. If you’re aware of them and begin a fight, they will not be killing you with the Pythons unless you make a mistake. The inverse is true of them, they will not die to your AIM-9L’s unless they make a mistake. It really does come down to the airframe performance in the end. That’s how you secure more wins than other fighters. Ordnance increases your chances of carry, but the aircraft is far more than “borderline useless”.
Blud is badmouthing me on discord 💀💀💀
let’s begin.
Starts with OP, continues with every post by OP
The OP’s initial points;
1.
Congratulations, it is not the only top tier without a fox-1. Other top tiers do just fine without them as well.
except that aim9l’s have to be used carefully because they’re slow (thus you ain’t going to get many kills by slinging them on furballs where an aim7 or a magic2/python/literally anything else is going to reach quicker. R60s turn tighter up close, magic 2s too, even aim9j’s despite having a 0.8 second delay from launch to guidance. Pythons? Let’s not talk about that.
2.
Your argument is essentially “AIM-9L is vastly inferior to the R-60M (l0l)”… no. It most certainly is not inferior to the R-60M. In fact, it’s worse in every possible way. The R-60M can only beat the AIM-9L in maneuverability or acceleration when launched at very low speeds as they missile suffers from speed compression quite badly otherwise. The acceleration difference only matters when you’re within R-60M range to begin with, seeing as the angry moth has nearly 1/3 the overall range of the AIM-9L… this is severely disadvantageous at top tier.
Did I say that aim9l is inferior to r60? Or is it what your bum head is telling you? I’m saying that the aim9l doesn’t fit the knife fight point blank meta that is what we get even on the biggest maps; meta in which any missile thrown point blank will hit except the aim9l; because unlike matra magic, r60 and python 3, aim9l is not a dogfight missile; this means you cannot compensate for the f16’s lack of nose authority at survival speeds; you not only have slow start missiles that underpull and arrive later than anything else, they also are in a plane that can’t just snap it’s nose onto an enemy like the mig29 or the mirage 2000 does. So no, aim9l is in fact just under the pyphon3 missile in terms of reliability; as for it will way too often completely ignore flares. I’ve gotten many “good prospect” games where i kill 5 guys in a row completely ruined because the aim9l from that tomcat still tracked my arse even despite I was turning at 50 percent throttle and flaring. As well as my aim9l’s having some important plot armor too.
3.
And your third argument… is pro F-16? It goes to show that the aircraft is perfectly capable. The AoA limitation you speak of is super advantageous as it prevents you from burning energy by turning too tight a radius or too many G’s. The next patch amends this and allows for more AoA in mouse aim… but I’m not certain it will last. Regardless, the aircraft is more than capable of fighting any adversary it should face currently and going into the future. It’s in a really good position.
huh? then the tornado and the f104asa should do as good judging by you. Have you tried like, not holding S? Besides the fact that mig29 has more extension privileges than the f-16? the mig29 has almost the same acceleration at first stage afterburner than the f16 on last stage burner, and it’s the fastest plane on the deck while f16 is actually 50kmh slower than the kfir c2. This is a fat skill issue on your part.
4.
One could argue that the Python 3s have a larger minimum engagement range thanks to the acceleration, it is not as simple as it seems. They are a better missile, but that doesn’t mean the AIM-9L is suddenly terrible just because something else is better.
Pythons have better close range performance than aim9l’s. That’s speaking of mach 1 wall of death encounters. At slow speed the aim9l and the r27t will pitch in for the target because they have all the time to and the target isn’t moving frantically. I’ve scored “dogfight” kills with aim9l’s by putting the missile’s eye seeker on the very border of the boresight on people going up after i dodged them.
The same way the R-60M is usable, the AIM-9L is more than sufficient. No one is going to be killing you simply because they’re equipped with a Python 3 unless you let them.
and this is where my argument that “any ir-armed only plane is not going to thrive” comes up again. Even if it’s an r27t or an r24t, four aggressive flare pops are going to deter them. Thus, fox1’s overtake the fox2s. If you have no fox1’s you’re doomed to cope with what you have, spend the whole match notching and thus being unable to nose onto people (and this is where the HMD of the MiG29 and f4j shine the most, pretty valid point you however totally deemed as gimmicky and even counterproductive).
They’re not at some serious advantage because of it. If you’re aware of them and begin a fight, they will not be killing you with the Pythons unless you make a mistake.
Python relies on reaction time and unexpected angles; aim9l relies on straight up bozoidness and lack of situational awareness and in occasions; bullshittery. A python will mostly ignore flares if it is launched from 1.2km and below on an afterburning target with a high temp engine, whatever aspect it is. An aim9j will completely ignore flares if thrown head on from 1.2km away on a hot target. An R60 it’s 50 50 if you don’t pull away you will get some red parts, an aim9l will completely miss the target if a single flare is popped even on full burner.
Ordnance increases your chances of carry, but the aircraft is far more than “borderline useless”.
Honestly i’ve done so much better on the ADF when i got the sparrows before the aim9l’s than with the A getting six aim9l’s. It’s more about which missiles are more effective, that’s why a mig29 with two r27er’s is going to dominate more than a phantom with six aim7f’s. You can notch them, yes, you can dodge them by snaprolling when they’re going super fast, yes, but they’re going to reach the target quicker than anything else on the game currently.
And no, you can’t ensure yourself your survivality if you notch below 1km, it doesn’t matter if it’s the beastmode radar of the f16 or the awful and unsensitive mti LD radar on the mig23 mld.
Then continue to use the ADF in Air RB if you don’t have the skill to leverage the extra maneuverability and second best IR missile in the game.
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I simply share screengrabs with myself in discord rather than saving them to my computer or uploading to IMGUR because it is faster and does not use the forums attachment size limitations. I’m not discussing this outside of this thread because frankly, no one cares. No one agrees with your points either.
No, they don’t. The R-60M and Magic 2 require that you get much closer to your target before firing, and only the magic 2 will have superior resistance to countermeasures at that point. Of the three of them, the only one hitting a 3km rear aspect shot is the AIM-9L. Depending on target, it also has a good chance of connecting as well.
If there was an F-14 on your 6’ with a high pK kill shot range for AIM-9L you already lost. You put yourself in an inferior position against a slower enemy. This has little to do with the performance of the armaments. If you had flared it off from 50% throttle, chances are he would have run you down and killed you in the merge from his superior positioning. Also, is the AIM-9L good or bad? You talk it up, but then talk it down. Hard to tell at this point.
Regarding the dogfight ability… you’re right… the R-60 with it’s 1kg warhead and better maneuverability for those 1-2km shots (head-on) is going to mean it outperforms the AIM-9L in those scenarios. I’ll just go ahead and resign the angry moths to being “slightly inferior” to the AIM-9L with drastically better flare resistance, range, warhead size, same maneuverability (and better when launched from high speed)… You can do your own testing too. The R-60/M has serious compression issues and has a hard time turning if you launch it from high speeds… which is troublesome because if you don’t launch from high speed it will struggle to reach the target in the first place. That is, if it isn’t chasing down someone’s flare instead.
The Tornado arguably has a worse missile than the F-16ADF / MLU and certainly the SuperTEMP is worse than the R-27ER… I thought the Tornado in particular was going to be quite a bad aircraft but as it turns out… ordnance can indeed determine how well an aircraft performs as long as it isn’t used in such a way as to rely solely on the airframe performance. The difference between the Tornado and the F-16A is that one of them has defensive BVR capability, and as such relies less on the airframe performance.
As far as the F-104S ASA… yes it performs quite well. It is one of the few 11.3s with IR missiles of such range and it has the unique ability to just… run away. Almost nothing can catch it. If he chooses, he can also mount Aspides and use his MTI radar to smack targets who are otherwise busy in the furball. These are both fantastic planes, but due to their limited airframe performances are at a lower BR. They’re both 11.3… and in comparison to most other 11.3s they certainly are not the worst.
For air to air, there is also the Tornado GR.1, MiG-27K, Mirage F1C, Mirage 2000D-R1, AJS-37… which brings me to another point… the F-16A was dedicated as America’s CAS variant for the game purposes. It was given the Mavericks while the other one wasn’t. I know your claim is that it is “borderline useless for air RB”… but it wasn’t even meant for it. You’re in here doing the equivalent of complaining that the Mirage 2000D-R1 (or most of the other aircraft I just listed) isn’t that great for air RB purposes… and it’s funny because out of all of them… the F-16A is clearly the best for this kind of multi-role situation. (Mirage 2000-5F and other 12.0s will obviously fare better for the point of multi-role though… but these are also partially gimped so that they may be upgraded in the future with better ordnance and likely a BR raise.)…
And then… this part…
Last I checked the Kfir rips at approximately 913 mph IAS, the F-16A rips at around 940+. The F-16 is significantly faster than the Kfir (any type). The MiG-29 is faster, yes, but if you’re being chased by the MiG-29 in close proximity you’ve probably lost your awareness or put yourself in a bad position to start with. Of course this is never totally unavoidable even in the MiG-29, but it has a lot to do with your decisions early in the match. If you decide to play a bit more passively or come in after your team merges into the furball to sling some AIM-9L’s… you’ll do fantastic. After which you can maintain your team barrier and continue assisting those who end up with enemies behind their backs. Play it as a supporting teammate and not as the lead element into the furball.
Yes this is true, but the Magic 2 and R-60M’s range limits them solely to the purpose of dogfight missiles at the moment. The magic 2 is getting an overhaul on the dev server which will change things though. The AIM-9L is still potent, and a buff to it’s flare resistance is actually pending as well. But I think I’ve demonstrated sufficiently (and wasted my time doing so) that the F-16A is more than capable and useful in air RB.
IR missiles have a position and launch parameter wherein there is a good 90%+ pK. If you put yourself into that position, you’re winning. The F-16 can do that because of it’s flight performance. I relegate the AIM-9L to long range shots at unaware enemies or save them in case the MiG-29 or whomever I am dogfighting tries to extend away. Often these rear aspect shots when they rely desperately on full burner are what net me kills and have the highest chance of kill.
On the flip side, if you allow the enemy to put themselves into a position to kill you with a radar missile… you let them kill you with the radar missile. You messed up. The envelope at which the Python 3, Magic 2, or R-60M will be a 90%+ pK on target is going to be extremely similar to that of the AIM-9L, and in fact… the Python / AIM-9L have similar range. The difference is the time to target as you mentioned. Since the Python 3 has better acceleration, the enemy has a worse reaction time. Any enemy who isn’t ignorant however, is going to know this and begin lowering throttle or pre-flaring. It will be just as effective at flaring the Python as it is the AIM-9L. It isn’t going to save you when they run you down and gun you though.
The HMD of the MiG-29 coupled with the R-60M will allow him to make last second shots where guns would likely have been more useful. The range on the missile is insufficient otherwise for the most part or the maneuverability too inept. It will allow more rapid acquisition, just… not really useful in a dogfight like something such as the R-73. The HMS is useful when you launch them from high speed on unaware targets in quick succession. I’ve racked up many kills this way, but I’ve done the same with the AIM-9L and the Python 3, or even the AIM-9D/G. I think the new missile warmup times added many patches ago make this more possible than anything else.
And of course, the HMS does little to offset how much the angry moths go for flares, their range, their high speed maneuvering compression… etc.
Both rely on unaware enemies for 100% chance of kill. The Python 3’s chances only go up because of the average skill of a war thunder player. The efficiency of the missile will be higher due to this. This alone is the issue, not the ordnance. The AIM-9L when used properly will net the same rate of kills because the seeker is practically the same in-game. Both are going to eat flares equally well against aware opponents who are doing the right thing.
I think your playstyle and decisions during gameplay have more to do with your efficiency in these vehicles than anything else regarding the ordnance. The AIM-7F against an enemy flying on the deck is entirely useless, whereas the AIM-9L is not.
This simply isn’t true at all. Most missiles below 1km depending on closure rate will not even proxy in time to hit the target iirc.
@Mantis_Religiosa I encourage you to do testing with a friend and make public your findings. Test IR missiles and at what distance they show a 100% hitrate in rear aspect against an aware target who is pre-flaring on 50% throttle.
bro i swear you come up with the best nicknames fr
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I don’t want to claim all the credit, read it somewhere else before and just carried on using it.
Spare me some lamp, brother.
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LMAO?
blud dun red or wah?
i just get the performance of the planes to 1v1 with them, i don’t bother spading them at all, and i have already all the performance mods for the block 10 so i don’t bother playing it anymore in air rb. Also, no. I do have the skill to leverage my speed and maneuverability, even to the point i can freely extend from mig29s that just keep holding S to come back with enough speed to kill them with the gun and get into the next dogfight, the problem is that the second best ir missile in the game is nothing given the hypersonic fox1 meta. You’re not going to meet 1v1’s, you’re going to meet 16v16s. And to move your f16’s nose you need to reduce your speed to 740kmh which unless you do know you’re in a solid 1vx without potential enemies flying around the furball you’re handling, you’re NOT going to do well at 740ias
i don’t think you know what early game presence is and why does it matter the most. In props, it’s the fastest climbing or airspawned props the ones with the privilege; things like the xp50, the ki83, the hornet, the tu-2… can decide the course of the match by making pressure onto high enemies and even killing many of them. In jets before rank 6, it’s the ones that arrive fastest to the engagements and in top tier, it’s the one that can kill the enemy the fastest and the furthest. The F16 can’t kill the enemy as fast as something with r27er’s or aim7’s; and this is why the Netz is still better than the block 10: even if it has only fox2s, these have an incredible acceleration that help reaching the target quicker than aim9l’s despite both have the same range.
But you do you, expert player.
Early game presence can mean the difference between your team getting stomped or not stomped… but in the end it’s your k/d ratio or your w/r you’re working on with that mindset. If you go in early and score a lot of kills your team will be better set… (which can be quite difficult without longer and faster ranged ordnance as you said)…
However, that doesn’t mean that the F-16A block 10 is “borderline useless”. It just means it will be played as a support aircraft like many others that don’t climb so well or can pull their nose around better at high speed.
So yeah, again… early game presence isn’t the be all end all as to which team is going to take the W. I would argue it doesn’t even matter “the most” as you say… I’ve easily clutched some matches that ended in 1v5 or 1v6 etc… but it was against less experienced players or those that made some mistakes. There’s no good way to have an early game presence with any of the top tier fighters relying on radar missiles anyway… the enemy would have to be flying more than 50m off the ground and ignoring the RWR for you to score a kill (and this happens quite often)… so imo it’s just a skill issue. The average war thunder player being bad at the game and not knowing the mechanics that will lead them to success is what is causing radar missiles to be remotely effective currently. If a player is better, and expects smarter competition… he can do just as well with the additional AIM-9L’s.
I’m not certain the quips are necessary in every single comment. It does not look good for your side of the argument if you begin to say such passive-aggressive and sarcastic comments.
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nah fr i remember you making up something gold way back too, i forgot what it was but i replied with
“petition to make this the official nick name for XXXX”
that was too good
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