and Eurofighters is much better
and a higher CM count
According to who? Do you have evidence of those “tons”?
If you think 6x R-73s is better than 4 9M/Lis and 4 AIM-120Bs
Why are you dictating the loadouts here… because if you include R-77s, suddenly ICE’s loadout isn’t particularly impressive, is it?
Okay… Typhoon with 9Ms and AIM-120s, 0.3 higher than the F-16, which means the 16 isn’t necessary.
Why should we listen to you on this matter? As long as there’s a gap, there’s a need for a gap filled. That’s what F-16AJ is, that’s what JAS-39C is etc.
First Typhoons are 8 missiles just like F-4F, it’s better in airframe performance first and foremost which is what makes it superior in the BR system.
Typhoons are all cleared for 10 missiles - 6 ARH + 4 IR, not sure why you’re limiting it to just 8, but you do you. Then again, you probably have no idea what you’re talking about. So we’ve got much better flight performance, better loadouts (both air & ground), much better radar, MAW & more CM’s… + IRST and if we wanna get funky, AMK as well.
I see Shini is attacking the German tech tree’s playerbase again instead of posting constructive posts.
Nobody here thinks you’re a “German player”.
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An aircraft is way more than just the sum of its missiles…
The Su-27 can carry 10 of the best missiles in the game, yet the Gripen is still the best aircraft because of its superb flight performance.
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Good luck try to dogfight or outrun F-16C or MiG-29 with F4 try doing that without being eat alive
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There is not as much confusion as it may seem, at least technically. Maybe, probably I misinterpreted his message.
I understood that you said that the A-4AR cannot use the armament that was available for the A-4M. In the case of the Bullpup, what you mention is interesting and I said that I will investigate them to find out more.
But to tell the truth, his first message went beyond the Bullpup and sounded like: “US delivered to Argentina a plane with limited capabilities, first removing everything useful” (he even mentioned that it can only carry 2 aim9 in another thread). If I misinterpreted the message, I apologize.
If you want, we can continue the conversation in the A-4AR forum so as not to disturb here. I just have to find out if the A4 could fire Bullpup (probably not, from what you tell me).
As for Maverick and Walleye, I am sure that their capabilities are managed by the new avionics.
Yeah, higher CMs will be nice if you find yourself in multiple WVR situations.
Ideally you never get yourself there.
As for radar, we cannot comment on the nuances for War Thunder, cause it’s still gonna see ground reflections.
@FurinaBestArchon
We’re all wanting Germany to stay strong; all on the same side.
Right now there are no gaps, and there’s no evidence of a gap coming, just fear of an unknown.
IDK why there’s this antagonism of F-4F ICE, maybe it’s a perspective disparity.
I have the perspective of BVR in DCS for hundreds of hours, being taught by BVR experts both IRL and in-games.
So I know that F-4F ICE will be strong in BVR.
Will it be the best WVR? No, but neither is EJ Kai and using the knowledge bestowed to me by previous generations, I made that work in War Thunder for a KDR of 2:1.
Everyone knows I’m a German tech tree player… I’ve been supporting and bug reporting German vehicles since 2013.
@Godvana
Glad you agree with me that aircraft is more than its missiles.
The Radar is better though why are you writing that off
No one’s trying to write off the radar.
I’m just not going to speak on it since unless War Thunder changes, it’s gonna be the difference between F-4J’s and F-14’s radar… not tangible, despite us all knowing F-14’s radar is superior.
What? ICE will be gapped by all 4th gen platforms with ARH’s, that is a fact.
IDK why there’s this antagonism of F-4F ICE, maybe it’s a perspective disparity.
It’s called precognition.
No, but neither is EJ Kai and using the knowledge bestowed to me by previous generations, I made that work in War Thunder for a KDR of 2:1.
“Noo dude, you just gotta be really good to actually do well in this thing, but it’s not worse though!!!11”.
If so, why isn’t Tornado F.3 at 12.3? Or EJ Kai for that matter. Well because both are factually inferior to 4th gens despite comparable air-to-air loadouts. That’s what awaits ICE, it don’t matter that it has AMRAAMs, it’s still an older airframe that will be gapped.
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The radars are better in game you know right
No one said Phantom platforms with modernized equipment would be the same BR.
All I’m stating is with identical-loadouts, we’re not going to see a 1.0 BR difference between 2 different capability jets unless one just flat out doesn’t have countermeasures.
@Mytho-GR1 Both are front-aspect only, gets eaten by ground reflections, and are resistant to chaff.
I do want radar simulation to improve in-game so we can see tangible differences between these radar systems.
DO NOT mince words, according to you, missiles are all that matter. You don’t even consider that flight performance might be a more important factor, or even a factor at all.
The purpose of an Argentine air tree is not only to fill in gaps that currently exist and will exist in the future, despite what you insist, but to also provide a destination for interesting vehicles from another nation, such as the Pulqui I and II, A-4AR, Ñancú, Pucará, and others.
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Yeah but one can hold a lock better then the other
According to me and everyone else, the entire platform matters, including flight performance.
I’ve been stating this for years…
@Mytho-GR1
I certainly hope that becomes the case in the future when radar simulation improves.
You’re right, it will be a 0.4 BR difference most likely, or 0.7 BR. Regardless of that, that will leave us with a capability gap… who would’ve thought.
Other than you previously insinuating that ICE would be at a higher BR than F-16s that will also likely sport AMRAAMs, but who cares right.
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Yes, and on balance, the MiG-29G is the better aircraft in comparison to the F-4F ICE because it has significantly better flight performance, better IR missiles, and a helmet mounted sight.
I didn’t comment on F-16 with AMRAAMs yet, and I apologize that I didn’t prior as that clearly caused some issue.
I think that F-16 with AMRAAMs will be in one of two situations.
It’ll either be on-par in BVR to F-4F ICE and Mirage 2000 5F… OR it and Mirage 2000 5F will be 0.3 BRs superior [not necessarily 0.3 higher than F-4F ICE, I just realized how my wording can cause issue but I cannot fix it].
I cannot accurately estimate that because of the performance gap the F-4F ICE causes between it and two superior platforms.
I do not know if 4x 9Ms and 4x AIM-120B/Cs will be enough to close the gap.
I have this concern just as many others.
And the reason I forgot to include this is clearly because I have a very work-in-progress line of thought regarding this.
I want to say it’s one or the other, but I cannot because I don’t know cause none of us have experience in the War Thunder ecosystem with this disparity yet.
All I know for certain is F-4F ICE will NOT be a higher BR than an AMRAAM carrying F-16.
Performing well in BVR is useful, but it is not what the War Thunder meta favours now and the introduction of AMRAAM will not change that. The meta favours aircraft that can dogfight as evidenced by the dominance of the Gripen. The F-4F ICE is going to get smoked when it comes up against any 4th gen fighter.
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??
Lets do a headcount of stuff that F-4F does worse;
- less CM’s
- worse flight performance
- at best a comparable if not an inferior radar
- comparable if not lesser missile loadout
Buuut somehow it could sit at the same BR? This isn’t even EJ vs AJ situation where the former has more missiles, F-16s with AMRAAMs do everything outright better.
I cannot accurately estimate that because of the performance gap the F-4F ICE causes between it and two superior platforms.
We can. Take F-16AJ & F-4 EJ Kai, why is the former 0.3 BR higher? Better flight performance (by far the most important aspect at top tier). M2K with MICA would also do most of the stuff better.
Now throw in AMRAAMs, so that both airframes have an identical amount of missiles, now the ICE has no advantage when it comes to kill potential. Throw in less CM’s, another hit. No helmet mounted display? Vine boom mp.4
Going by your logic, EJ Kai should be sharing BR with MiG-29G & Gripen, but it isn’t.
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This^
If we had proper map with procer distances, i’d say the F4F ICE would be a good BVR platform, however with the current size of the maps and implementation of SAHR and AHR missiles, it would struggle and be pointless, because it just doesn’t have the performance to dogfight, its too easy to close the gap currently betwen fighters.
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