Trust me, it just gets mauled by 7.3s / 7.0s like the Arado 234 C-3 and SK60B.
I can assure you, a chonky WW2 jet bomber, and a tiny trainer that can only carry two MCLOS missiles will not be mauling any half decent player in a 1960s radar gun SPAA.
Well, do you have the M163?
Also, the ZSU-23-4M2 is at the same BR as the M163 and is vastly superior in multiple aspects aside from the lack of radar.
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Yes
False and not relevant anyways.
Ok, would you like to do a custom and see which vehicle comes out on top? (SK60B or M163?)
It’s relevant because you believe that radar makes a huge difference in capabilities, and yet I’m saying the ZSU-23-4M2 is better despite its lack of radar. And I can give you many reasons as to why.
Let me give you another example, the WZ305 is significantly better than the M163 and that’s why it’s at 8.0 despite lacking a tracking radar.
Custom battles don’t reflect actual battles.
That’s subjective.
It gets proxy.
Sure, they don’t reflect actual battles 1:1, but they can reflect certain portions of it, like an SK-60B having to do SEAD before it can kill tanks.
Sure, the conclusion you and I would be giving is subjective but I can you some facts where the ZSU-23-4M2 is objectively better.
That’s true, so would you argue all proxy SPAA shouldn’t exist below something like 8.7?
No, they really don’t. If you’re in a 1v1 CB, you know there’s an M163, and there’s only a single M163. If you in an actual battle, you don’t know if there’s an M163, you don’t know where it might be, and you’re also fighting other threats like Marders.
Pretty much just protection and anti-tank capability. The M163 is better for shooting down aircraft due to radar.
The WZ305 is literally the only proxy SPAA in the game below 8.7
None of which really matters since MCLOS missiles can be slinged at ranges of 5/6kms.
No SPAA is going to reach that distance (let alone hit at that range) and spotted / marked tanks are relatively easy pickings.
The radar only assists with aiming. If you are good enough, you do not need the radar lead to be able to aim in front of aircraft in linear / curvilinear motion.
The ZSU-23-4M2 has better range, larger caliber rounds (23mm instead of 20mm), larger volume of fire (3400 rounds each minute instead of just 3000 rounds each minute), better gun elevation (85 degrees vertical instead of just 80 degrees), and has a full stabilizer (whereas the M163 doesn’t get any). All of this helps the ZSU-23-4M2 against aircraft.
And what of it?
If radar SPAAs such as the M163 should be 8.3 then why aren’t you arguing that all proxy SPAAs shouldn’t exist below 8.7, for example?
That itself does not matter if you cannot see the M163.
It doesn’t hover at max firing range. Planes are constantly moving forward.
It also helps with sniping.
You could probably hit this shot all the same with a ZSU-23, however you’d need a longer burst, which would likely result in the plane dodging. A short burst isn’t very alarming.
What point are you even trying to make? They were specifically talking about radar guided SPAA. Why would I bring up proxy SPAA when it’s unrelated?
Why would an M163 at 5/6kms be of any issue?
Yes, but you wouldn’t be going towards the M163 from 5/6km.
You could very well be on the opposite side of the map going towards the enemy tank from 5/6km.
In actual matches, you’d be even further away from the SK60B sitting somewhere on the friendly side of the map. You’d have to hit him from 8km going to around as close as 5km.
That may be true, but that is evidently going against a 1.7 prop aircraft, going in a straight line…
You may be able to do it with higher BR vehicles, but you’re starting to see the end of superprops and the beginning of jet aircraft at 7.3.
If an Arado (for example) decides to go in a straight line towards the battlefield for too long like that guy, then that’s on him.
I asked a question regarding your thoughts on proxy SPAA balance considering you had earlier made a statement on radar SPAA balance.
HS-820 is basically the RP3’s 20mm, except you lose the stab and strapped three together. So better than the TCM 20mm’s.
The TPK 6.41 carries two on a much more mobile platform (albeit much less armoured). It’s sitting at 5.7 (which I think is reasonable).
I’d say an M113 chassis with 3x Oerlikon 20mms would be fine at 6.3 - 6.7.
7.0 may be pushing it.
Maybe, but even 6.3 or 6.7 helps fill the hole.
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Oh for sure.
That’s why you position near your teammates when playing SPAA. Also, everything you’ve said assumes absolutely perfect SK60B gameplay.
First off, half of what you face at 7.3 is low-tier. Second off, wouldn’t change anything if it was a jet. He woulda died all the same. Actually, he woulda had less time to react due to flying faster.
It isn’t always possible. Staying near your teammates also guarantees risk of dying to enemy tanks.
Isn’t that what you’re assuming from the M163’s side too?
Not necessarily. Besides, that wouldn’t be ‘M163 being too op’ issue but rather ‘too many people run low-tier vehicles’ issue.
Jets are much faster, so evading and getting in-and-out of combat is much easier.
That’s also less opportunity for the M163 to shoot in the first place since they’d be able to move out of the way quicker.
Yes, conditions aren’t always optimal, and there’s a risk of dying when playing this war game.
If you miss one singular missile with you SK60B, that’s half your supply gone. If you get hit by a single cannon round, that’s your wing gone.
The M163 is very forgiving, being decently resistant to strafing, has radar lead, (iirc) 1,800 rounds, and you only need a single or a couple shots to hit to take a plane down.
SPAA in general tends to be quite forgiving.
I SEE THEM EVERY GAME. Even when bringing my Hovet to 9.3, I STILL SEE IL-2S.
Even the planes you face in a full uptier are pretty outclassed though. Seriously, a 1960s radar SPAA at 7.3, whilst a 1950s subsonic jet with fewer munitions than a mustang (F-86A) is at 8.3? Not only is the match-up pretty much impossible for the F-86A to win, but it’s also difficult to use F-86A as CAP cause no1 wants to spawn CAS above 7.3.
It doesn’t close the window that much. If 7.3 SPAA relied on manual lead estimation, then the speed would be helpful, but not when everyone has radar lead.
Not really that big of an issue when you only need a couple of shots to hit to kill em.
That’s true, though unless you are being shot at by planes, I haven’t had any real issues with setting up to get an easy RB05A kill. SPAAs were of little to no concern unless I wanted to use the m/56D unguided rockets soon after. The biggest problem I’ve had were due to tanks disappearing / desync from being too far away from them.
A single hit is needed, yes, but getting that single hit is the hard part – even with 1800 rounds 😅
I mean, most SPAAs are quite forgiving, but I can’t say that they are the easiest to play. The track radar definitely helps with that, but it can’t help from getting dive-bombed, or ganged up on, or MCLOS’d that often.
I’m not sure about that. It’s one of the easiest SPAAs to strafe due to it being open-top, and having its ammo stick out like a sore thumb:
Yeah, I don’t know what to say about that lmao. Sucks to be them I guess!
To be fair, I think it makes sense that an air-superiority fighter is outclassed by SPAA. There are better vehicles at 8.3 for CAS (maybe not for US, but in general), such as the SAAB-105OE and S.O.4050 Vautour IIN.
I’ve seen quite a few people play 7.3 CAS due to the L-39ZA Albatros for the Japanese tech tree. It gets 16x Zunis with CCIP. I’m pretty sure you can tell that it isn’t very fair against most SPAAs at that BR.
MiG-15Bis ISH also used to be very popular back when it was still 8.0.
It can still do some work at 8.3 though. Same with the SAAB-105G now at 8.7.
The radar lead on the M163 sucks though. It only works <2km as well.
And people who know how to aim the guns already don’t exactly need to rely on the radar tracking either.
It’s like having a rangefinder / LRF and not having one. Sometimes it’s quite useful but in a lot of other cases it’s unnecessary.
Can’t exactly land those couple shots if they are outside your effective range though…
Legacy chaparral, rear aspect only missiles, usually paired with the m163 to cover incoming and retreating aircraft