This is a really bad change to the aircraft. While in paper, 4 all aspect missiles at 10.3 is really strong, they are the only real way you are going to get kills with this aircraft because of how slow you are, how bad your turning ability is and how little damage your gun does, compared with the very limited amount of ammunition available and really bad placement.
The main issue with the missiles aswell is that you can just outroll the AIM-9P-4, even in a head-on.
Not only that but because it has no radar/hmd and because the plane is so slow, your missiles are really limited, both in range and engagement profiles
It is completely fine at 10.3 as it is and it really should not move up to 10.7, it is just going to be free food for any plane it will face
Not to mention the lack of RWR that is critical at these BRs, especially when at 10.7 you will be often uptiered to face jets with PD radars and AIM-7F/E (DF) sparrows
Seriously, how is this equivalent to the J-35XS, J-7D or the Mig-21SMT???
9 Likes
Wait, this is going to 10.7? I’m grinding through the Thai additions to Japan now and this thing is unbearably bad to play even at 10.3.
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10.3 seems like a fine BR for it. 10.7 puts it at the same BR as the A-10 late, which has an equal amount of better missiles, as well as RWR and much more cms.
It’s not like Aim-9P-4s are 9Ls that you can’t physically dodge without flares.
But what we really need is decompression.
4 Likes
I think it’s already somewhat of a tragedy at 10.3. On the one hand, of it goes any lower, it can fire all aspects AAMs vs subsonics with no countermeasures or easy means of defense. That’s obviously problematic and shouldn’t happen. On the other hand, aside from the addition of the AIM-9P-4, the airframe is otherwise completely unchanged from the 8.7 Alpha Jet As, despite sitting 5 entire BR steps higher. For reference, that’s the same gap as between the rear aspect R-60 armed MiG-21MF and modernized MiG-21 Bison, featuring upgrades in AAMs, RWR, Engine, HMD, Radar, etc. The fact that in regular play, the same Alpha Jet A airframe can both see the immediate postwar F-80C (7.7) and mid-cold-war JA37C (11.3) is kind of crazy.
So what can be done? I think Gaijin ought to change the Alpha Jet TH from Phase 1 to Phase 2, giving it at least a new cockpit and possibly access to more advanced A2G munitions, which would make it a bit more distinct and deserving of the increase in BR. There is also the engine, which like the base Thai Alpha Jet A, should be the later 04-C20 engines, which would add a bit of thrust and performance to the jet. ( They were acquired from German stocks after the engine upgrade happened ).
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There’s some things of note that you failed to mention
Firstly the Alpha Jet TH is technically ahistorical in the sense that it can equip the 27mm which the Thai Alpha Jets never had. At most the earliest Alpha Jets Thailand operates only had the gunpod casing for the 27mm but not the cannon itself. Secondly technically Thai Alpha Jets can use FFAR rockets since they do have it in inventory the Thai Alpha Jets primarily used CRV-7 rockets so it should get those unguided rockets as well. Also Thai Alpha Jet should not be able to get any French bombs since Thailand never have them in stock, only American ones.
Not only the Alpha Jet TH is awkward in a balance point of view but also due to how rushed this update is it’s also not implemented correctly in a historical point of view
2 Likes
I don’t mention this because this isn’t an issue- its a deliberate choice by Gaijin that I appreciate. Trying to fight without the gun would be even worse, and in the past Japan has typically gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to compatible but not owned armaments (look at AAMs on F-4F vs F-4EJ vs F-4E).
The same thing can be said about the bombs. If anything was rushed, it was the devblogs- which evidently had limited proofreading and research put into them. There are far more concerning weapon additions / absences from this update, even within the subtree. The F-5T is missing most of the armament that make it the upgrade, while the F-16A OCU has AMRAAM thrust on it even when it was never in use in service, resulting in a higher BR and making it by far the worst 13.7 in the game.
its a bug, the alpha jet TH (thailand) are exports from germany, which were all upgraded with the F-104G style RWR (tone/audio only) so it should at least tell u when u are locked from any direction.
The antennas are modelled on the german and thai AJs but the RWR itself is missing. Not to mention the RWR/ECM package sits on the back seat (replacing the second pilot).
German AJ should also receive Aim-9Ls at least in Air RB and go to maybe 10.3 along with the thai one
2 Likes
AV-8S is 11.0, and is as fast with 4 all aspect missiles: 9Ls.
Now, 9Ls are superior to P4s; and that does not change the fact that Alpha Jet with 4x P4s is still 0.3 - 0.7 BR separation in capabilities with the AV-8S/Sea Harrier.
@Armen_Lozone
I’d say same BR as whichever Sea Harrier that has the same amount of 9Ls, but yeah the subsonics with all-aspects are potent.
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4 9Ls would put it at 11.0, and that wouldn’t make for an enjoyable experience. Keep the German alpha jet at 8.7.
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2 and no lol, why would it ever be 11.0
A-10A late with more CMs, better gun and FM and survivability and 4 aim-9Ls is 10.7 in ARB so why would the AJ be 11.0 are u kidding me
in GRB it would more or less stay where it is. Aim-9Ls shouldnt change that BR
I was basing it off of the Sea Harrier with 4 9Ls being 11.0.
If the German alpha jet ever did get 2 9Ls, it would be 10.7 and rank VII in my opinion. We do not need ar 9L slinger with decent flight performance at 10.3.
has better FM and capabilities so idk man…
10.3 max lol, why would it be the same BR as the A-10A late with all that it has.
we dont need an aim-9l slinger true but the AJ could use some self defense capability
The early harriers do not have a better flight model than the Alpha Jets (atleast in my experience playing the Sea Harrier FRS.1, and test flying the german AJ).
It would be a higher BR because it has better flight performance. The 400kmh speed difference, and better dogfight capability, should lead to a BR increase.
idk man, its a subsonic with high speed bleed, 400kmph isnt rlly accounting for much, speed wise compare it to the seaharrier and armament wise with the A-10 early except it has a worse, singular gun, and worse A-G capability as well as worse survivability.
In contrast to the Sea Harrier FRS.1, theyre both subsonic, but SH has 4 Aim-9Ls as well as two ADENs with a high fire rate. Also doesnt have to sacrifice A-G pylons to carry the Aim-9Ls
Oh… oh no…
Alright time for a funny post.
So Harrier engines, beautiful low-speed high-thrust engines… they gain thrust as the aircraft goes slower.
The airframe was designed to be as light as possible while having those engines, it sustains… poorly like almost as bad as F-84F. It can accelerate though.
Now Alpha Jet can retain energy as well as a Mig-17 while accelerating rather well, slightly better than the Mig-17’s acceleration.
So both airframes I’d consider rather equal. In air RB where energy management is key, both planes are usable to about the same degree. Both share characteristics that are good enough.
So it’s safe to say that while there are minor playstyle differences, the Alpha Jet airframe is at least equivalent to Harrier’s in threat.
A better comparison would be the FRS.1e, which only has 2 9Ls at 10.7.
The general flight performance is superior. The A-10 without missiles would be an 8.0 plane, while the AJ without missiles is at 8.7.
been a while since i flew a 17 but yeah that sounds abt right ig
agreed
whoops, forgot that one existed lol.
yeah thats closer but still kinda better armament wise, 4tons payload on SH vs less than 2tons on AJ. I mean the bombs are bigger (1ton on SH vs 500kg on AJ)
tbf its not unimaginable for AJ to be 10.7 in ARB but id take some self defense capability still
Do you see 2 9Ls as a .3 upgrade over 4 P-4s?
Ideally there would be an 0.7 difference, but BR compression doesn’t allow for that.
An alpha jet with 2 9Ls is a 10.7, and one with 2 Aim-9P-4s should be 10.3.
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The Alpha Jet A is not the focus of this thread as both the Alpha Jet A (Germany) and Alpha Jet A (Thailand) are largely satisfactory in their current configuration. There is no need to uptier the existing 8.7 jets as both fill a nice niche within their respective tech trees. If you’d like to make a suggestion for a later service German Alpha jet with the theoretical upgrades it never received like AGM-65 integration feel free.
The subject of this thread is the Alpha Jet TH, a Thai upgrade to the Alpha Jet A carried out in their service through multiple phases.
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