Just for your information Poland M1 Abrams don’t have DU. The DU armor was taken out for the FMS export armor package without DU for foreign sales.
4 Likes
US aint gonna sell the secret away
only DU in the country
lol
There were already sources on the internet. Meanwhile gaijin is over here using swedish export data.
Swedish export sources are much more reliable than ‘estimated protection levels’ from ‘tank protection levels’ website.
1 Like
This is one thing I’m a bit confused about. In the Swedish trials, did the abrams have it’s DU armor or was it replaced with a less classified armor package?
1 Like
It had a substitute armor iirc, think armor like the ones given for export abrams. Essentially you get a different material but it gives around the same armor level for the current US tanks at the time.
I don’t have the doc with me rn but sweden essentially planned armor upgrades for all the vehicles. Here was their plan for the armor on the Leclerc
2 Likes
Let me see the whole document. One snippet doesn’t say much of anything because at it stands it doesn’t make any sense at all.
The polish have orders for 3x the maximum amount fixed cost removable DU turrets from the snippet you posted, and that’s only if they decide to expand upon the 28 listed in the snippet to the maximum of 88 additional turrets.
The order was 250 SEPV3 to Poland, not including others that have gone.
This would only cover what seems to potentially be the 116 or whatever it was, m1a1SA’s that they received.
This refers to nothing as of now regarding the 250(I think) SEPV3 they have an order for which I have seen nothing regarding any changes to its armor package, u like Australia with specifically requested non DU armor and The US had to design a similar protection non DU option for them.
So I’d like to see this whole document you’re referring to.
Since according to US Approves Sale of 116 Ex-US M1A1SA Abrams MBTs for Poland
Poland received m829 depleted uranium rounds, and if they did I don’t see why they would accept ammunition but not the armor. Not to mention it doesn’t even say that Poland took advantage of removing the DU turrets, other than 28 with the option of 88 additional.
Your snippet only says that 28 would be removed.
Might be a dumb question but if we can get around the same level of protection using different materials, what would be the point of using DU?
Could be weight or maybe it differs during penetration. I assume export abrams have worse armor than DU as DU is more tough than other materials. We also dont know if the composite array is the exact same between US and export abrams to my knowledge. Tbf armor and pen are massively reduced in warthunder
1 Like
Cheap and plentiful, but the reality is there’s no way any of us would know. I think there is probably material differences and being as it is cheap and plentiful(while I think probably has better protection) is why the U.S. chose it. It’d not as if we couldn’t afford tungsten it did little to affect price in the sale to Oz.
The other option is normally tungsten, but I think depleted uranium has better energy depletion characteristics because of how it is prone to shattering and fracturing in I think better ways than tungsten, depleting more energy from a penetrator. This is my own opinion though.
2 Likes
I think you have it, i personally believe its how DU reacts when shot that makes it more commonly used alongside being a more common material for the US.
2 Likes
Welp such document (Sweden one) never really explain if substitute armor (Export V1) was on par with DU armor.
But if substitute armor (Export V1) was more of less on par with DU package. Why would Sweden ask US to send tank with DU armor package in the first place anyway ?
- From what we know it’s better than other materials
- We have a lot of it and it’s cheap + easily accessible by govt
- It’s all locally made unlike tungsten, so the supply can’t be cut off as easily in a war (tungsten also mostly comes from China iirc)
1 Like
Could be to see differences between substitute armor vs DU. Its hard to say realistically unless i was there or had more info. Realistically they were impressed with the armor for the most part with the vehicles which is why they looked at making armor modifications for all vehicles during these trials. Regardless it was just a suggestion based on other more modern examples like the aim and M1A1T. If i knew more id post it but i dont believe any soecifc material was listed in any of the reports, i know for the armor solutions which showed swedish modifications there is occasionally a mention of a material but it doesnt really help that much.
Edit had to check with some peeps, so the Abrams used had a special armor that offered similar values to the DU model since DU wasn’t available for testing. Apparently the Abrams in sweden weighed a tad bit more than a standard abrams with DU by a few hundred kilograms.
Green equals better armor. Sweden planned on additional armor plating.
These are also images from a test bed turret they they set up. I believe many of the numbers from the trials were either given by the manufacturers or were obtained via testing.
1 Like
The Swedish export package was not on on par with the domestic Du package.
There is reason why the Swedish were demanding DU package but were ultimately denied.
6 Likes
Denied due to “reason”
Thanks for the info
Tungsten, like most materials comes from China because it’s cheap. Not because we don’t have access to it. There’s very few minerals or anything the U.S. doesn’t have, or a lot of materials for that matter. It’s not about not having it, it’s not that China has it and we don’t.
It’s that China is tooled up for it and makes it now. We could do the same, but globalization has made them the main producer because of cost.
Like how OPEC(Russia) never wanted to shut down oil production because every time they do, it made it profitable for US to extract more and ceded more market share to us, until we’re now the largest producer and refiner of oil.
China has the market because they’re tooled for it and have made it so other couldn’t exist profitably and that gave them the lions share of the market. The minute prices go up or national emergency exits, expect a quick tooling to get it done as fast as possible.
For Posterity, Kenny sent me the document and it states the 116 Abrams there are all un-du’d.
Though I can find nothing to say that the Sepv3’s will be anything other than US versions. Especially since they’ll be given m829a2,3(and I think 4 but don’t quote me) DU apfsds. So I imagine if they’re getting the darts they’re getting the DU armor.
But he was right for anyone else reading it.
Well yeah but still, like you said that requires making tooling when we already have all that in place for DU.
Ppl hate on nuclear power but it’s like the only method of power generation with a beneficial byproduct (ye ik DU is made as byproduct of enrichment but still)
DU is also extremely good radiation shielding so I wonder if that makes an Abrams slightly safer than a Leopard if a nuke goes off and they are in the radiation range