Dude - i summarized all positions, there was simply no need for commenting on them, the deeper meaning of a summary is exactly to avoid endless repetition loops…
As this proposal came from you - what’s the state of this?
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The first objective is to kill the enemy player. So ‘‘fighter bois’’ are the most objective focused.
‘‘PvE’’ players are usually players that just want to grind and do not care about expending a lot of time in the game to learn how to fight enemy players.
Tell me how does a bomber in the airfield fight back a fighter waiting him outside airfield protection?
How is the bomber playing ‘‘the perfect match’’ if he cant do anything to win?
No AAA does not change this.
The gameplay you are looking for exists Simulator with EC matches.
Air Realistic Battles with 25 minutes time limit and maps 1000 times smaller than your ‘‘stories’’ is no fit for your dreams.
You are also showing that you are inexperienced in fighter gameplay because you dont understand how a PvP ARB match plays.
PvP ARB is not about dogfights, is about energy management, strategy and teamplay. Dogfights only play a small part in PvP ARB and this is the beauty of the gamemode.
AAA just ruins all that and that is why almost every experienced player hates AAA, specially on prop maps where we have secondary airfield with strong AAA protection that cover half the map and destroy the whole gameplay.
If you had PvP experience and also played 2vs2 tournaments like me you would see that the gameplay has nothing similar and that 2vs2 is a lot more boring in fact…
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Going slow, I had no time. I might finish it now in vacations and make the suggestion.
I just need to add ground targets and maybe export it to other maps/sizes.
No problem. It is not a matter of life or death.
But from my pov the more interesting questions are these:
I mean it would be really nice to see what the community as a whole thinks about this whole issue. It makes actually no sense to continue with your efforts if it is unclear how many people are affected, see the need for a change (or not) and how they feel in general.
At least the total number of poll participants would give either an indicator if we talk about a 1st World problem of a few or an existential issue for all. I mean 5 likes is a start, but even if gaijin would take a look at your suggestion, it is always a matter of statistical importance (confidence interval) if a poll is able to represent or validate an opinion or not.
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Ah, a suggestion has to always include a poll.
So yes I will include a poll in my suggestion.
‘’ 7) Include a poll in your suggestion - Having a poll as part of your suggestion allows fellow users to quickly and easily show support for your idea. Besides the obvious convenience for other users, it also provides a good general overview of the support your idea garners over time.‘’
https://forum.warthunder.com/t/rules-guidelines-tips-for-creating-suggestions-check-before-creating-a-new-suggestion/
And about that, no. I did not send my map configuration to the devs, in part because it is not ready and in part because Im just a tech mod, this part is not my work. In this aspect Im just a regular player giving my ideas and opinions.
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Not only that but convoys also have SPAAa that are capable of shooting down planes. It makes ground pounding more challenging than before.
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Yeah today got 1-burst shot down by M163 while maneuvering at 500km/h in… Ta-152H. So fun. We need more things like this for sure :)
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mhm- i was aware of this. I asked this independent from your upcoming suggestion.
As you created this thread it would be easy for you to add a poll to the first post - covering all aspects of this very complex topic and it would be easy to check the pulse of the community.
A poll could look like:
A) Do you have issues with Airfield AntiAircraftArtillery (af aaa) in Air RB?:
a) yes
b) no
If no - the direct to point E)
If yes - detailed feedback required.
B) Where are your issues located:
a) Prop BRs
b) Jet BRs
c) in both BR ranges
C) What are your issues with prop BR af aaa (multiple answers)?
a) af aaa is too strong
b) af aaa is too weak
c) af aaa is not consistent on all maps
d) prop BR af aaa is fine, i have just issues with jet BR af aaa
D) What are your issues with af aaa in jet BRs (multiple answer) ?
a) af aaa is too strong
b) af aaa is too weak
c) af aaa is not consistent on all maps
d) jet BR af aaa is fine, i have just issues with prop BR af aaa
E) Game play: af aaa is
a) helpful and supports my game play
c) not helpful and not supporting my gameplay
c) not affecting my game play
F) Necessity of af aaa:
a) Essential
b) Has to be removed
c) I don’t care
G) Your play in Air RB
a) mostly fighter aircraft
b) mostly strike aircraft
c) mostly bomber aircraft
H) I fly in Air RB mainly
a) in order to grind the Tech Tree (TT)
b) in order to earn SLs
c) in order to have fun as i like being a pilot
I) I see and use Air RB mainly as
a) a Team Death Match mode
b) a PvP mode (player vs player)
c) a PvE mode (plaver vs environment)
d) a combined PvP/PvE mode
So - this poll would give this whole tread a structure, is neutral regarding the wording and would help to clarify what we are talking about. A problem of a few or for a significant number of players.
Without structuring this whole topic will end like the old one - 6 years and 2.035 replies:
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I sure agree we need longer match time. Then the whole issue would mostly disappear because one team fulfils enough of the objectives to drain enemy tickets.
Fighter bois might focus on the first objective/air supremacy, but the first objective does not win you any war, it provides attackers/bombers or the boots on the ground to fulfil the real tactical objectives.
I know about the different styles of air tactics. I spoke about the clusterfuck that the dogfighting on the deck usually is because that is the least tactical part. People energy fighting still do something remotely focussed on winning a battle vs. diving to the first enemy spotted.
Map size I think is kind of adequate, with larger maps going back to base and go for another run takes a lot of time. While reality in WOII was a constant going back to base, fixing up the plane as fast as possible and up in the air again, certainly when a side was on the brink of loosing like the Brits in the Battle of Britain.
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While I am greatly convinced about the benefit of AF AA to the gameplay, I agree the middle map AA is highly detrimental for gameplay. It just serves Gaijins “the faster people play the less they earn and the less server space is needed” design philosophy.
Now removing AA on the AF would hurt the game emergence. When I started playing RB what I like most was the taking off and landing, making it feel much more like a real sortie with a mission compared to AB. Removing the AA would make landing and taking off much more dangerous, usually a better solution would be to space climb (which is annoying and kills emergence).
Much much better would be to increase the timer to 45, 60 or 90 minutes. That removes the need to win a battle by killing all opponents because their is always enough time to fulfill all the objectives. Without the need to kill an AF camper people would get much less benefit by AF camping which should remove a considerable amount of camping.
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Good luck space climbing in a fighter, makes 0 sense. So generally your point is - you like to land and just want to run the clock, so everyone gets bored to death and that somehow improves the gameplay? You can’t make this up.
You completely ignore how AAA ruins dogfights, ruins PVP in general and creates toxic and malicious tactics of baiti g people into the deathzone.
Ground pounding is no alternative. It’s boring, it’s giving up position, and oftentimes it’s pointless. Sp we’re back to complete redesign of the gamemode while removal of AF AAA solves a lot of gameplay problems with minimal effort.
There is no map where killing all enemy players is the only way to win. From the beginnings of warthunder it was always designed as battle and not a duel.
How you not see doubling the time destroys AF camping is baffling to me. If there is one guy camping his AF the other team now has ample time to win by objectives. You don’t give up position, because you dive to ground and if needed RTB to your own AF for a reload. If the enemy then leaves his AF you should be happy, if he stays he looses on tickets.
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Tbh i had my problems with reducing the game time from 60 to 25 minutes as i had really some epic matches years ago over 1 hour with scores above 9300 points and really great matches.
But seeing that the quality of Air RB decreased so fast in the last 6 - 24 months and considering that most prop matches are decided in 8 to 15 minutes and the match result became more and more a random event, i think 25 minutes are ok.
At least for me real turnarounds (like winning in a ticket disadvantage playing 1 vs 4) by killing all remaining opponents became extremely rare.
Imho there is no need to kill an af camper outside you play 1 vs 1 (as last players alive) in a ticket disadvantage.
And then you can still decide if you take the risk to go in to get that lucky shot or to go low and try to kill tickets and get jumped - or you accept the loss, as somehow his team has simply played better to gain this advantage.
As long as you not try to push win rates and see the outcome as a more and more random result there is no need to get angry. Just imagine u accept the loss and in the next match you win without firing a single shot as you land on Tunisia and u have 7 Wyverns in your team, killing all tickets in under 4 minutes…
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I’m part of Anti-AF AAA as well but, I’m against them from a game design perspective not “historical” stuff.
I mean there are some aircrafts that can be untouchable even you brought same BR aircrafts if someone played correctly such as rocket aircrafts and F-104A/C so, Jet RB needs nerfing AF SPAA/SAMs or removing them from early Jets to early supersonic jets tier as counterpart of untouchable things.
Tunesia (as an example) would become more fun if AI targets are spread more across the map. Some ground units could be more back, maybe even within some kilometers if the AF. That way both sides, the air supremacy guys wanting to kill every player can add something to the game while ground units should remain very important for the mission as well. And having targets spread out more also gives the benefit of fights occuring further away from each other, so if I dive on a wyvern both he stand a chance and I stand a chance of not getting third parties.
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Roland missiles are pretty easy to evade since the missile guidance overhaul. They need to buff them as now they do not provide sufficient protection for planes on the ground.
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I have no problems with povs pro or con af aaa - but i think your example contradicts the whole purpose of the availability of highly specialized planes.
Their purpose was to be op and untouchable and your expectation looks like you want to nerf a game mechanic just in order to exploit their weaknesses.
So imho your game design requirements are already met by gaiijin - the BR setting policy tries to flatten certain advantages of planes with BRs far away from reality and create more or less a pure fictional / fantasy game design with more than questionable BRs. We have certain planes able to be untouchable even in full uptiers and without af aaa.
So i do respect your pov but imho the main strength or wt thunder lies in the vehicle variety, and plane class variety - following your logic to remove af aaa to catch op rocket planes helpless when refuelling, makes them useless. Nobody would really fly this stuff anymore.
In case all u have to do for a kill is to wait until your enemy runs out of fuel, the whole purpose of PvP interaction (who is better?) would be pointless. Even if some claim this would be realistic - it simply de-validates any “real” air to air kill if kills can be achieved that easy.
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Except he doesn’t because it’s very easy to create ticket advantage no reasonable amount of brainless clicking in a fighter will fix.
Also yeah extremely good solution - wasting my time clicking on ground targets for 15-17m. Extremely fun and engaging.
So overal:
- random actions of attackers you can’t really prevent may nullify even creating a 5:1 advantage because German fighters are horrible at ground pounding
- even if you can ground pound your way to victory, it’s extremely boring and tedious
- AF camping requires no skills at all, in a PvP game an automated zone that kills.enemies and keepa you safe is a ridiculous idea.
I mean, seriously, how anyone with any amount of skill can’t see this doesn’t help good players, it only helps people who are extremely malicious. So do we want to really promote players that are bad in every way?
Once again - running the clock is not a feature any serious game should have. PvE aspect of Air RB is absolutely atrocious and forcing anyone into playing this probably means you guys simply DO NOT ENJOY AIR RB.
Yeah, exactly this. You basically take the only true PVP air mode in game and work hard to cripple the PVP aspect, the only thing that makes it playable.