There are some planes that genuinely deserve to go down in BR tho, such as the J-8B in air sim, or the Tu-14, Yak-30, or almost every vautour in air RB.
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yea but thats usually not what people are suggesting. Yak-30 going down has little consequence because better jets already exist at lower BRs and always have existed even prior to the f86/mig fiasco, but you got ppl suggesting (and I’m making this up so as to not call anybody out in specific) stuff like say, the F-4J (USA) to 11.7 because it suffers against 13.0s.
I’m honestly shocked my take explaining my reasoning got flagged and hidden.
262s are bricks with guns that theoretically hit hard but are very difficult to get sufficient lead to hit with outside headons and chases due to the platforms being bricks. P-51Hs, Spitfire 22/24s, and Beercans have no trouble catching any 262A. The 262C-1a can briefly outrun them, but is even more of a brick than the A models. The 262C-2b can actually sprint to catch things in funny ways, but is even more of a brick still.
That was my experience recently spading all of the unfinished 262 models (Jabo, U1, C-1a, and C-2b). Currently also doing the Sturmvogel and once again props generally have their way with it.
Also doesn’t help that Germany still has no proper superprop equivalents, which dropping these sad brick planes would serve to fill at least decently.
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All I can say is it wasn’t me. Lots of users on this forum abuse the flag system.
This is the same argument people make for things like Su-7 to drop to 9.0. “Oh you can’t dogfight it!” doesn’t really matter when said 262 can hold an energy advantage over you 24/7. So long as the 262 doesn’t mess up, it won’t die. The 262s are doing poorly but the solution is decompression, not further compression.
My god… a day has come that I finally agree with you.
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I strongly disagree that 262s are even able to “hold an energy advantage over you 24/7,” tbfh. Why? Their acceleration is awful in anything but a dive. And the guns are the exact opposite of what a brick like that needs, given its brickiness means you often cannot maneuver enough to pull required lead. That leaves you with either headons or dead chases. Anything with at least a couple nose cannons can headon. Dead chases rely on the opponent being an idiot and not seeing you coming.
In prop tiers, even the likes of P-47s and Mustangs can actually accelerate in a straight line quite well, so those actually can energy trap things well, unlike any 262. The 262 has to bleed speed trying to get a firing solution, and against the likes of a H-stang or Spiffon, that means death. The one 262 with some decent cannons is even more of a brick.
I am aware that the C-1a and C-2b can vertically-loop people almost endlessly while the boosters are active. But all it takes to avoid that is simply to not try stall-climbing up to the Rocket 262. No differently than how it’s quite easy to avoid the exact same maneuver being done by any bricky heavy fighter like the Hornet, F7F-1/3, Ki-83, and others.
Relying on your opponent to make a rookie mistake does not make bricks like these good in any way.
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Reformatted by request of OP.
China
J-7D
ARB: 10.7 → 11.0
Performance between the MiG-21MF & bis, but best-in-class missiles even though they are only rear-aspect. It is only at 10.7 to milk the disposable income of the large Chinese playerbase. Abused by skilled players and low skilled players alike. Blatantly undertiered.
F-104G
ARB: 10.7 → 10.3/10.0 - no flares, fewer missiles than the F-104J. Maybe move to 10.3 and adjust down from there if it still struggles.
JH-7 (& premium version)
ARB: 11.3 → 11.7
Missiles and flight model are definitely way too strong for 11.3.
J-2
ARB: 8.3 → 8.7
MiG-15bis equivalent. Currently undertiered along with most Sabres & MiG-15/17 variants.
Shenyang F-5:
ARB: 9.3 → 9.0
Similar flight model to MiG-17PF, Lim-5P. Two PL-2s aren’t worth a BR bump.
Russia
Eremin’s Yak-3 (early)
ARB: 4.0 → 4.3
This actually has better performance than the 4.3 Yak-3 at the cost of some burst mass. The Russian 12.7s and 20mms hit like a truck anyway. This has no business seeing 3.0 planes. Regular Yak-3 (USSR & French) could go up 0.4 to 4.7 as well without noticeable impact on its effectiveness.
MiG-15/17 family
All Air RB
- MiG-15: 8.0 → 8.3
- MiG-15bis: 8.3 → 8.7
- MiG-15bis-ISH: 8.0 → 8.7 - Minimal performance hit from the MiG-15bis. Closer to bis than MiG-15.
- MiG-17PF: 8.7 → 9.0
France
F4U-7 (France)
ARB: 6.0 → 5.7
No reason for this to be 0.3 above the F4U-4B with a worse flight model now that Ground BRs are separate.
NF-5A
ARB: 10.7 → 11.0
The raw performance actually exceeds the F-5E flight model at almost all altitudes in WT. It also has equivalent armament to the 11.0 E models. Doesn’t deserve 11.3, but it is, again, intentionally undertiered to capture that premium money. Closer to 11.0 F-5E than 10.7 F-5C.
Germany
MiG-15bis
ARB: 8.3 → 8.7
Undertiered. Very strong already compared to current 8.7s.
Lim-5P
ARB: 8.7 → 9.0
Undertiered. Very strong compared to other 8.7 & 9.0s.
F-104G
ARB: 11.0 → 10.7
Weak compared to existing 11.0s, let alone 10.7s.
Italy
F-104G
ARB: 11.0 → 10.7
Weak compared to existing 11.0s and 10.7s. Only 2 missiles.
F-104S:
ARB: 11.3 → 11.0
This is seriously higher than the MiG-21bis family and the F-4EJ???
F-104S.ASA
ARB: 12.0 → 11.7
Compared to the 11.3 F-4E, it has slightly better missiles but lower number. It has better top speed at low altitude, similar acceleration, and much worse maneuverability. Comparable missiles to 11.3 F-5E FCU with much worse flight model. 11.7 is a good start, but 11.3 could be justified.
Japan
R2Y2 Family
ARB: 8.0 → 7.3 for all
Just because Gaijin have removed these and are pretending they don’t exist doesn’t mean they can’t adjust them. They intentionally gave players a month to grind them after first notice, plus many have used them for a decade. They have also been adjusting other removed vehicles like the Coelian as well as rare/unobtainable vehicles like the Ro.57 Quadriarma
Britain
UK Phantom Family
All Air RB
- FG.1: 12.0 → 11.7
- FGR.2: Add AIM-9L and leave at 12.0
- F-4J(UK): 12.0 →
11.311.7… OR …add AIM-9L and leave at 12.0
The 12.0 range is horribly compressed right now, but these would be a good start. Could also make the argument of adding SuperTEMP to the FGR.2, but then it would be better than the Tornado F.3. There is no way it should go up to 12.3 though.
USA
Sabre family
All Air RB
- F-86A-5: 8.0 → 8.3
- F-86F-25/35: 8.3 → 8.7
- F-86F-2: 8.7 → 9.0
F-111A
ARB: Stay 10.7 but remove AIM-9B, add AIM-9E stock, and add researchable AIM-9J
AIM-9B at 10.7. Absolutely ridiculous.
F-14A (EDIT: late addition)
ARB: Stay 12.7 but add AIM-9L.
MiG-21bis has R-60M at 11.0. Rear-aspect Fox 2s are pretty limiting at this BR compared to other enemies.
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I would argue to split these up into 6.7, 7.0, and 7.3 for the V1, V2, and V3, respectively. They are similar, but the V3, even stock, accelerates noticeably better than the V1 does when equally stock.
They are fatter but more maneuverable 262s with better guns.
This isn’t how energy works. Once an aircraft has achieved high energy it will always have high energy until you make a mistake. A me-262 in level flight going 800+kph is going to always do that forever until it turns or climbs. A p-51H, probably the fastest prop you will meet, will not catch this unless it holds a significant energy advantage AND the me-262 flies directly underneath it.
This doesn’t even need to come into the conversation. The point is the Me-262 is invincible until it makes a mistake. The P-51H cannot force the Me-262 to make a mistake. At best, if the me-262 doesn’t mess up, the p-51h can dodge forever and create a draw, but not a victory. It’s not that hard for the 262 to just get a single 30mm shell on the p51h at some point through repeat bnz attacks.
Not past 600kph.
Energy trapping does not consist of level flight acceleration. It consists of entering the fight at a higher energy state than the enemy which the 262 will always do if it isn’t making mistakes.
Not enough to neutralize the energy advantage.
Unfortunately air RB isn’t a 1v1 so the 262 doing this to props will end up creating many situations where even if you’re dodging the rocket 262 consistently, the 262 will put you into a position of danger towards the other 262s that will also be trying to kill you. That’s also the thing. You’re asking for every 262 to basically be considered a prop in BR so you won’t be facing 1, 2, or 3 of these but entire teams.
This is ironic. This is basically the entire reason why the 262 is oppressive against props if played correctly. Nothing the prop pilot can do will ever equalize the energy state unless the 262 pilot does something really stupid.
And saying ALL This, what I really want you to consider is that 5.0-5.7 props will do about Me-262s. Not what the best props in the game such as the griffon spitfires or the P-51H will do.
It should be 12.0 since that is where the Mirage F1 is and this is roughly comparable in most ways.
Well, because that’s what it is. It’s just a rename afaik.
I believe this one should stay 8.0 just to see if it really overperforms after raising the others. It gets just about 0 playtime across the playerbase and it is significantly weaker than the 15bis.
Compression.
massive compression, do a direct comparison to the F-4E which is already a top 3 11.3.
Compressing downwards does not fix compression. You would be here in a year complaining that the 10.7s are getting curb stomped by the new 11.3s you created.
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It’s also much harder to fly than the F-86A, and is probably a worse plane too.
No.
It should be 11.7 because it is considerably worse than the F-4J or F-4S, but better than the F-4E.
Moving bad planes down does not equal BR compression. Ideally stuff would move up, but even if you moved every 12.3+ plane up, the British phantoms would still be the worst planes at 12.0, and I fail to see how they are much better than the Mig-23s.
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It’s compression.
We do not need to keep pushing PD radars downwards to oppress planes that may not even be able to detect the radar band they use.
Right, but moving planes that do not need to go down and instead everything else needs to move up is compression. You of all people should know this. I’m not going to respond to you if your next comment is you just saying the same thing again.
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Show me an RWR at 10.7+ that can not detect I band radars.
I do know that we need decompression, but that still won’t help overtiered planes get any better. Even if we only look at 11.7/12.0 in a vaccuum, the British phantoms are still worse than every other 12.0 that isn’t an F-104, and they are much more comparable to the Mig-23MLs.
It’s also highly optimistic that Gaijin will decompress 12.0 next, and not 13.0 or higher, and it’s not like the British phantoms would be too good for 11.7 either.
I’m currently spading the last 262 I have yet to do so with, the old event Sturmvogel - and the thing cannot hold anywhere near 800kph in level flight after a dive. Can it outrun an H-Stang or Spiffon or Beercan? Yes, but only barely.
It very much does, because pull too hard trying to get a firing solution, and that’s enough of a “mistake” for a casual .50cal spray to knock out an engine as you are zooming away. And if its a Spiffon or Beercan, you might lose a wing instead.
Any 262A is frankly not that damn good. I rate it as substantially worse than its supposed counterparts the Meteor, Shooting Star, and Su-9/MiG-9.
So far while spading the Sturmvogel, every match that was a “downtier” my team consistently performed worse than when it would see other jets - this suggests the props are more than able to hold their own against these things.
Theoretically it could be, in practice is a whole other story. Damn near every game I get a so-called “downtier,” those props proceed to chew up “superior” jets far more easily than what you claim.
Depends on the prop, obviously.
Most Japanese stuff is and has been horrendously overtiered due to idiots turnfighting them like dumbasses. These can dodge 262s endlessly.
The Yak-3U could use opponents it can’t clown around on for once. The La-9 was specifically built to tango with jets. The Yak-9UT and VK107 would be interesting but likely would still work decently. Russia also gets the funny Yakjet family to tango with the 262s. Nevermind the occasional BI-2.
France & China have American and British superprops in the relevant BR ranges.
Britain, besides the Mk22 and Mk24, also has the Tempest II, and then meanwhile the Tempest MkV and Mk14/18 aren’t slouches either. The LF MkIX might struggle a bit but could evade endlessly.
For Italy, the G.56 and Re.2005s are similarly overtiered much like Japanese. And they can again dodge 262s endlessly.
Finally, Sweden gets the J21 and A21 early jets which are somewhere in between the likes of Yakjets and 262s, with vastly better guns than both.
I think dropping the 262s would cause a bit of growing pain, but other nations would adapt just fine.
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I believe you are simply not correct in your assessment in the 262’s capabilities, especially referring to things like this:
So I can’t really hold a conversation with you beyond this besides agreeing to disagree.
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I just experienced this in an actual match, though. Granted, the Sturmvogel is mostly stock, but it couldn’t even hold 750 very well, something the superprops can reach in a gentle dive. Any attempt at evading enemy gunfire from a pursuer only slows the 262 down further.
That’s a lil low. It could go to 11.3 easy.
i really dont think its better than the mig21bis. it only gets 4 missiles instead of 6, they’re good, but rear aspect only is very limiting.
Added.
In the future please do the nations in order, and br lowest to highest, also, you can skip making another reason for a similar vehicle like:
USA:
F-104G 1.0 → 1.0 (why)
Italy:
F-104G 1.0 → 1.0 (same as the reason as the USA one).
All those who agree:
Mig-15 BR increase
- Yes
- No (see if decompression shows it’s actually too good)
0
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