AGM balance: Discussion with intent to replace Kh-38 and similar weapons with balanced Munitions

[Kingtiez]

I’m indifferent, I have no issues facing the Kh-38. Additionally I would like to see those Kh-25s too tho.

[Armen_Lozone]

thats fair, although cant say we agree on the 38s lol

[ItsOnyy]

In an ideal world the KH-38MT wouldn’t have made it to the game, KH-38ML is fine as a Brimstone (SAL) counterpart, they force the player to engage single targets, increase the skill ceiling for CAS and fairness for those on the ground. I’m actually happy they went with SAL guidance from Brimstones, it makes gameplay, fun and satisfying, KH-38MT on the other hand takes no skill, and it’s always a guaranteed kill, where is the fun in that?

Either remove the IR guided version of KH-38 or give Brimstones its full capabilities, albeit with a limited amount of FnF and no limit on SAL.

[TheIrishBread]

It was likely an over correction after the addition of the SAP-HE and IR guided mavs alongside killing multiple birds with one stone as out of one general missile you were originally getting two agms and two glidebombs which overall is alot less work for 3d modelling. IMO we could have gotten this (IR kh-25s) over a year ago and the IR kh-29s.

As for FnF brimstones and other ARH A2G munitions im happy for them to stay out of the game till gaijin reworks radar modelling and adds both ECM and natural interference because the complaining about CAS rn is bad enough i dont even want to think about the ire KH-25MA/E, KH-29MP or KH-38MA would bring.

[Saprano_2132]

Because unlike Kh-38, Kh-25MT/MTP never made it past the prototyping stage at best. (Along with every other weapon for Russia mentioned in this post)

Issue is with Russia, there’s no gap filler between Kh-29 and Kh-38 that actually exists. All the projects that could’ve worked as a gap filler, were either cancelled or only proposed for export if someone bought it to fund the actual development of it (Zhuk-A/AM/MiG-35 Syndrome)

Hell, to be honest its an issue with any kind of weaponry in game, nations will develop different things to fit different needs or to fulfill some kind of contract, you can’t really “standardize the performance military weaponry” (without ahistorically nerfing it ala Magic II) for the sake of WT to make everything balanced…

[Saprano_2132]

I don’t think Kh-29MP has ever existed no? also Kh-38MA is an active homing seeker, ie its meant for Anti-Shipping, not SEAD iirc

[AlvisWisla]

Kh-38 is an OP 30km [game-limited] AGM, and the IR version shares the IR seeker of AGM-65D in-game currently.

As of new knowledge, the Kh-38MT over-performs as its IR seeker is supposed to function differently than it does IRL.
So yeah, for now in-practice it’s at least as OP as all the other IR AGMs.

[Magikッ]

@ItsOnyy

KH-38ML is fine as a Brimstone (SAL) counterpart, they force the player to engage single targets

No, not really. There is a world of difference between them.

[Armen_Lozone]

since i am the context provider allow me to make it clear that the Kh-38 is OP with regards to everything. not just cas, not just spaa. everything.

@AlvisWisla

any argument that tries to do otherwise is just trying to justify CAS not being OP when it is

no idea where you pulled that out of. theres no relation to this deduction from the initial argument.
because lets face it, you misunderstood. CAS is OP. period. but the most OP AGM is the Kh-38.

@AlvisWisla

And your post’s argument can and will be used to justify Kh-38s aren’t OP whenever someone brings up Brimstones.

yeah… if the reader never bothered to really understand nor fully read my points.

@AlvisWisla

F-15E is the most powerful CAS platform

one of. not the most.

most powerful means it is above every other platform. you yourself state,

@AlvisWisla

that doesn’t mean it’s more or less OP than Su-30SM.

which is exactly what it means

@AlvisWisla

What matters is what can SPAA do against these platforms? Nothing.

and guess what, we have time and ample opportunity to intercept all other munitions other than the Kh-38 at long or short range.
SPAA being neutered is another topic. there are other places to discuss that. i myself have a thread about it. but not this one.

whataboutism is not the way forward. because you cant say what about spaa being weak. no. im talking about the Kh-38. not SPAA.

@AlvisWisla

War Thunder CAS isn’t trying to frag each other

then you havent seen the Su-34s or the mirages or the eurofighters take mixed loadouts.

@AlvisWisla

Statcards aren’t videos of IOG providing a tangible benefit.

never was claimed by anyone. IOG provides the munition with a kind of GNSS guidance if it loses its primary method of tracking. meaning smoke wont cause the Kh-38 to dip and fall way short. it will just hit the point it was last going towards when it was still tracking. this is not a new feature so i dont know how you dont get this.

@AlvisWisla

Kh-38s don’t have better zoom or thermals than targeting pods.

strawmanning. no one claimed this. the comparison was between the 38 and the AGM65.

@AlvisWisla

Kh-38s are intercepted by SPAA as everything else

not easily. theres a range where they cannot be intercepted. the sheer linear velocity doesnt let even the best SAMs to manage the deviation intercept.

@AlvisWisla

You don’t get to argue that SPAA can intercept and them claim SPAA can’t afterward.

and no one did. you are imagining things.

@AlvisWisla

Not because of some weird overly complicated arguments that are easily used to argue Brimstones “more OP”

and no one stated that either. how are you misunderstanding people this much?

[AlvisWisla]

@Armen_Lozone
Note, I am AGREEING with you that Kh-38s are OP.
And we need new SPAA that will assist in that fact.
I however am not going to glaze Russia and their equipment just because I could dislike the fact Hammers and PGM_3s are as OP according to your own standards set forth, as well as my own standards, and AGM-65s are as OP under my standards.

Hammer has the superior GPS backup ON TOP OF IOG that your argument cares about.

Hammer and Kh-38 have similar theoretical ranges, both have IOG, both are bomb-like warheads, and Hammer has GPS backup.

[Armen_Lozone]

@AlvisWisla

Hammer is “as OP” as Kh-38 according to YOUR arguments

almost as OP. as you might have seen in my original post i mentioned the IR hammer if you had read it.

it doesnt have the speed however hence hammer =/= KH-38

@AlvisWisla

PGM_3 run IR + IOG

slow as hell. the slower a missile, the worse its IOG is. WT models inertial drift in case u didnt know. hence the missile/bomb still veers ever so slightly off course. if its faster, inertial drift doesnt get that much time to affect the trajectory.

@AlvisWisla

and to your argument Hammer is the most OP cause it has GPS backup, with PGM and Kh-38 being equally OP.

bro stop lmao. ur twisting my words and twisting yourself in the process. if i said the KH-38 is the most OP. that is it. period.

@AlvisWisla

As for “getting behind cover”, when firing from 10,000 meters, or even 9000 meters, it takes a particularly tall building to hide from these munitions.

again, not the point of the convo. stay on track.

@AlvisWisla

Also my comparison was CAS vs CAS, I’m not firing Kh-38s, Hammers, AGM-65s, or PGMs without targeting pod assistance. Now, in the case of Su-34 that targeting pod is only getting me near, and the Kh-38’s LITENING-like zoom and thermals are used for the acquisition itself, but the targeting pods are there to give assistance.

ok…
tell me something i dont know lol

@AlvisWisla

I however am not going to glaze Russia and their equipment

no one here is. if you think i am then youre rlly sleep deprived rn.

@AlvisWisla

Hammers and PGM_3s are as OP

only hammers are comparable. i think PGM-3 is even slower than hammers iirc

[Armen_Lozone]

@AlvisWisla

It’s a little sad this was a blatantly incorrect statement.

then you fail to understand still.

feature set of the Kh-38:

• speed
• warhead
• IOG
• top attack trajectory

no other AGM has the same set, showing me statcards wont help if you failed to understand my point entirely.

@AlvisWisla

Hammers are straight up superior to Kh-38 by the standards your posts set thus far.

then you continue to misunderstand bro. sorry i cant help with that

[AlvisWisla]

While we have a disagreement over the methods we came to our stances, we both agree that Kh-38 is OP.
I just wish you saw every IR missile as OP and was focusing on everything.

I’m sick of people getting on the bandwagon only after a Soviet missile is added and not when other missiles have been ruining top BR for far longer.
And GBUs prior to Pantsir’s September 2024 buffs [kind of glad GBUs aren’t OP anymore… just need to work on these missiles, including Kh-38].

[Armen_Lozone]

@AlvisWisla

IR missile as OP

thats the thing though. not all IR missiles (AGMs) are OP imo. many are fairly balanced (not considering how easy it is to get them ofc)

we need to introduce counterparts to the Kh-38 or replace it with ones that are comparable but less game breaking weaponry (such as i listed in the first post)

[NCC105]

@Armen_Lozone

Probably due to the sheer amount of missiles that can be carried.

the main problem is mmv seeker’s huge fov will lock undesired targets, and due to radar seeker’s character, you can’t know what the missile is locking.
the number isn’t a problem, they can just limit it “for balance”, like in MI-35M, which has only half of its missile.

[AlvisWisla]

That’s the primary criticism of radar missiles I’ve adopted from the community.
I thought the only concern was undefeatability until last year when someone brought that up in the Brimstone topic.

I then considered how many potential teamkills that’d be… 5 - 20.
Far more than someone with a reckless FAB-5000 could pull off, and the radar-missile slinger would do it unintentionally, thus not even bannable. An unbannable teamkilling weapon… That’s the worst part.

Also Mi-35M doesn’t have half its missiles. It has all of its missiles that the devs are aware of it using.

[NCC105]

@AlvisWisla

Also Mi-35M doesn’t have half its missiles. It has all of its missiles that the devs are aware of it using.

that’s new for me. why?
it’s strange that only one side can use missile

[AlvisWisla]

At least one version of the Mi-35 has wiring for AGMs on one side of the aircraft IRL according to unclassed docs I’ve read.
Not sure why that is the case.

[ARK_BOI]

And now Gaijin add another x6 KH-38 with separate type of aircraft but still no FnF brimstone because it will operate risk free of SPAA?
Total Double standard clown

[Anonymous4245]

I only play ground nowadays in the context of SRE. I think any top clans can utilize brimstones effectively, anyways mmw radar would be miserable for people in the ground for the mere fact you can’t smoke it.

Our air constantly calls out “ground smoke” and we can utilize double popping to move out enough of the way to defeat IOG, mmw Radar would not get defeated this way