Abrams front glacis not shattering apfsds-t and turret ring inaccuracies

This is really just an issue with apfsds in general, because other tanks will also receive buffs from this, while the abrams will definitely see the most benefit, I still think this will be a overall improvement for the game that claims to be “one of the most realistic tank and plane games.”

First off, the abrams glacis (I may use ufp interchangeably) is 32.8mm at a 82.5* angle. The turret ring is actually 50.8mm, but due to overlapping plates and the fact that the ring is not exposed its actually about 200-230mm depending on where you focus on, and the gap between the hull and turret is much smaller than shown in game. I’ve attached some photos for reference.
Real photos:



In game:

Now onto the next issue, shell shattering. If a sufficently thick plate is angled within a certain range and made of specific materials it will cause to shells to shatter upon impacting. However this range is quite small, >81* and the shell will not shatter, and <85* the shell will bounce like normal. Like previously stated the abrams ufp is well within this range at 82.5*. Tungsten does some strange stuff at 1700m/s, and acts more like a liquid than a solid (see the photos below as an example), and will start to bend upon impacting. The shattering mainly occurs due to the fact that long-rod apfsds is typically very thin, long, and made of metals that are very brittle when traveling at that speed. When the round impacts this sufficiently thick plate the force causes the round to bounce up and reverberate so much that this quasi liquid shatters and breaks into a bunch of tiny pieces.


Long rod apfsds shattering could still potentially cause damage, as its several hundred pieces of shrapnel traveling at still very high speeds, but due to the turret ring being much stronger than currently shown in game these shrapnel pieces will have little effect. This does not mean the abrams will be invincible in the front, as some may want it to be, but it simply helps in snap shot situations where abrams players will have to aim for incredibly small weakspots in order to kill an enemy, while the enemy can simply shoot the entire bottom half of the tank and win the fight. For a game that prides itself on realism and balance, this issue shows that it tends to not be realistic and balanced.

In conclusion while these potential changes may only be mainly focused on the abrams they will result in a massive positive change as a whole. It will not immediately “fix” the abrams, but it also will not make it absurdly broken, as it will simply mean that opposing players have to take a little bit longer to aim at its weak points which will still be very large, as the driver’s port, lfp, and gun mantlet will still be potential places to shoot.

Any constructive criticism is welcome and please keep it civil.

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Should add that such turret ring fixes were accepted all the way back on the old forums, yet changes have yet to come forth, namely that the M1IP and M1 have a different turret ring damage model which is currently superior to the M1A1 and beyond because the latter’s DM does not actually match up with the model.

I will also attach here the accepted turret ring reports that exist on the current report system.

M1 Abrams (all subvariants) incorrect turret ring // Gaijin.net // Issues

M1 Abrams tanks turret ring and sight roof plate wrong material. // Gaijin.net // Issues
Should note that this is another example of gaijin under developing armor in game as in game, this would make the turret and roof far weaker since gaijin considers CHA worse than RHA, however, modern steel manufacturing processes in the likes of the M1, even from the document in the report state that the wrought (rolled ect) armor is equivalent to the cast parts and the difference between them would be the quality and means of the welds between the parts.

Attached here is said citation : ADA163330.pdf (dtic.mil)
image

The incorrect naming of the hydraulic reserve in the M1s is also something I would chalk up to a turret ring issue since it directly interfaces with the turret ring and causes issues across the board currently.

Hydraulic Pump of all models of M1 Abrams is incorrect. // Gaijin.net // Issues

For the UFP we have

(All M1) Wrong UFP/Shatter plate thickness // Gaijin.net // Issues

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You worded this really well; I can easily follow along, and it’s easy to understand the info.

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Thanks man! Also werent you on my other post about the TOW-2B?

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yea

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Hey just for a future tip of advice, whenever discussing about vehicle specifications (especially the abrams) It is best to include sources. Not only to back up your claim but to also shutup “trolls” (as seen here Abrams) and prevent unnecessary drama.

Fortunately the very first message is of this thread is of @Lolman345 provided sources which is good. I’m looking forward to seeing a productive discussion on this.

Personally I feel like there should be a thread (where no one can reply) of the current issues that the Abram has. There will be a red x and green check saying whether or not the issue has been fixed. It will prevent unnecessary repeats posts saying the same thing, unnecessary drama, but most importantly a thread where everyone can go to and inform themselves about the inaccuracies the Abrams faces. One thing I absolutely hate right now, is the lumping in of braindead takes and people with genuine and informative takes. What this does is it dismisses any concern people have for the Abrams. so again let’s have a good faith discussion here.

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Thanks for the advice on sources, i’ll try to include them in future abrams posts. I did use some for my TOW-2B discussion but I couldn’t really find anything on the abrams that hadn’t already been used so I used photos as references.

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Frankly I would have posted more if gaijin did not hide all citations for reports anymore. The one I was able to attach is due to the title of the document being in the report and easily accessible online.

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Just to ask, I don’t think any apfsds shatters at the moment, only APDS seem to shatter, I know IRL they do but with current game probably focus on turret ring RN.

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You are correct in that apds shatters while apfsds doesnt, but it really wouldnt be too hard to make. It could probably be done by making any impacts from 81-85* have their penetration reduced to 0 or close to 0.

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True, but it means Russian tanks will be quite a lot stronger, cause their side armour will likely shatter a lot more, improving their survivability. NATO tanks’ 30mm are a bit bad.

Remember you have to be at an extremely specific angle, 81-85*, and it only really works with long-rod apfsds because of how long and thin it is. At this angle with an ifv you might as well just shoot them with a missile if you have them. In regards to long rods I don’t really see a problem considering these shots probably wouldn’t even pen anyways because of volumetric bs.

But it has to work with chance right? It doesn’t just do it every time, somewhat like APDS.

The abrams ufp having a chance to shatter? Remember it has such a specific angle that even a slight incline could ruin the effect, so I don’t see the real issue with it happening every time at that angle.

Gaijin won’t add APFSDS shatter because it would make tanks that are already good, game breaking.

These include:

  • Strv 103

  • T-Tanks (T-72 and T-64 + successors)

  • Leopard 2A5/6+ (Including Strv 122 A & B)

How would APFSDS shatter affect Russian tanks? None of them has angles so steep that it would trigger this.

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If a set simulation is made, with all possible outcomes being identical due to identical data points, a shatter would happen 100% of the time.

ERA would be insane, and, yes, the angles are extremely high, and grow exponentially on a slight hill.

Why would that be the case? The T series tanks arrays dont reach critical angles for such to occur.

The funny cheese wedge already autobounces 99% of things due to it’s insane angle.

The Leopards only reach critical angles when their nose is up.

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Which in all states of a defensive or hull down position puts you at a massive advantage.

Oh, yeah, and T-Tanks have ERA which would practically deflect or shatter APFSDS before it would inflict any damage.