5th Gen Will Ruin the Game — Here’s Why

[CyrusJacob]

@noister

The rcs isnt a fixed value.

I know, hence why I said idealized front aspect.

[noister]

Front aspect =! Specific angle

Even extremely low poly models fails to reach -40dbsm

[CyrusJacob]

Problem is that these models are not 1/1 poly replica, and do not account for RAM. The only way to get the proper number would be to laser scan a stealth fighter and then get accurate RAM value on top of it.

[noister]

Low poly models give a lower return than high poly ones 99% of the times
Regarding RAM, yeah thats classified as hell

[爱抓人的高木正雄同学]

I think it is a very dangerous decision to join the 5th generation of fighters in the future. The argument of rcs will tear the whole community apart.

[CyrusJacob]

@noister

Low poly models give a lower return than high poly ones 99% of the times

I know, I know :)

Just saying its hard to get an accurate value without a laser scan, low poly or not. And apparently Gaijin seems to go on the lower end of RCS as of right now if the F-117 is already hard to detect at around 30km by even some of the real good AESAs like the APG-63(v3)

[noister]

The problem is, people will just doing a couple of googke searches makes wild ass claims.

I want gaijin to do their own simulations and make it public, and then add the ram effects over the simulation. (For sake of balance, every nation should get equal reduction). But gaijin can change the overall ram values to make sure 5th gens dont curbstomp 4.5 gens.

[爱抓人的高木正雄同学]

@noister

For sake of balance, every nation should get equal reduction

Well，you know.👊🇷🇺🔥

I have no expectations for the balance problem.

Please forgive me if this offends you.

[noister]

Jokes aside i really dont see gaijin doing that.

Just look at fox 3 missiles seeker (ignore the odd one out mica em)

[爱抓人的高木正雄同学]

I hope everyone will be satisfied with the future 5th generation of fighters.

This is my wish.

[scorched_orbit]

I just don’t want 5th-gen fighters to get flattened into 4.5-gen equivalents for balance, because if they’re modeled properly they’d likely overwhelm 4th and 4.5-gen jets. On top of that, depending on what actually gets added, top tier would probably just turn into F-35 vs F-35 matches most of the time, with maybe an Su-57, J-20, or F-22 here and there. That also risks becoming pretty boring, since most nations would realistically only have a single 5th-gen option.

[exeisdefeatable]

Does anyone know how much does AIM-9X block 2/2+ pull irl?

[scorched_orbit]

Exact numbers classified; most open sources put AIM-9X Block II/II+ at roughly ~60 g peak.

[Code_649]

Hello,

@scorched_orbit

The F-22 mainly uses AIM-9X and AIM-120D, not M or C variants. Yes, it can use them, but it’ll make it less realistic. If Gaijin did add AIM-9X and AIM-120D, it would be way too OP. AIM-9X has an IIR seeker, extreme off-boresight helmet cueing, and can be fired at targets way off the nose, and it also has thrust vectoring — it’s not even considered in the same generation as the L/M.

The AIM-120D has better INS, GPS-aided navigation, a two-way data link, better tracking memory, improved resistance to notching and chaff, longer effective range, a bigger no-escape zone, and way better performance at altitude. These all would make the game horrible. Basically, if they added the AIM-9X and AIM-120D, it would be massively unfair for every person in the game, especially in arcade.

You need to keep in mind that the F-22’s AIM-9X and AIM-120D won’t be added on its own. There will be “equivalents” (depending on who you ask, the next-gen IIR and radar missiles USA has is subpar compared to everyone else; at least in the context of what the F-22 uses) in the game by then, making this “advantage” (if we can call it this) a non-issue.

@scorched_orbit

• Classified Data Issues

This is probably the biggest issue, if not the second biggest issue. 99.999% of all 5th-gen aircraft data is classified, which would make Gaijin have to basically guess on everything: 5th-gen RCS, how RCS changes when weapons bays open, when the aircraft climbs, maneuvers, IR signatures, degradation of the stealth coating over time, and how it changes when damaged. Without knowing even a little, it would make the 5th gens either absolutely OP or very underpowered.

Pretty sure there are some RCS figures flying around from official (or close enough) sources. It’ll largely be a guess game, but at a minimum we already know the F-22 has the lowest RCS figure out of every stealth aircraft, including being equal to or close enough to the B-2’s RCS.

@scorched_orbit

I’m 11.3 getting put in 12.7 games or in 12.3 games, where somehow prem F/A-18Cs get in. If 5th gens did get added (15.0+), it would be a nightmare for uptiers. Even though uptiers are supposed to only be +1 BR, more than +1 still happens, and that might mean 13.7 getting into 15.0+, and they are bound to happen. Basically, every 4th gen and 4.5 gen would get pummeled by the new 5th-gen territory, and they would get absolutely demolished.

Every single vehicle in 14.3 is capable of at least contending with the F-22 medium to close range. Almost everyone at that BR has an aircraft with a powerful AESA or PESA radar. They won’t be undetected forever, though early game will be difficult to spot them from far.

Going back to what I said about everyone receiving equivalent missiles, everyone will (or should) have missiles with two-way datalink, which means even if the missile’s radar doesn’t see it, it’ll prioritise the launching aircraft’s information to the F-22’s location and operate like a SARH in that regard.

@scorched_orbit

• Stealth Doesn’t Exist

The only “stealth” aircraft in the game right now is the F-117, and the only thing it has going for it is missiles have a hard time locking onto it — that’s it. If they added 5th-gen fighters with true stealth capabilities, they’d need to rework almost everything from missiles, radar, all of that. And they can’t not add stealth capabilities to 5th gen, because then they would basically be the same as 4.5-gen fighters, only a tad upgraded.

There is no way to add stealth the correct way or the fair way, especially with the SPAA and missiles in-game. They’d also need to add a whole new mechanic for stealth degradation when getting damaged or after surviving a long time.

I don’t think there’s any need to rework anything at this point. The F-117 iirc is the only aircraft with an RCS value, the only thing that would need to be ‘worked on’ is simply finding various sources stating the F-22’s (and others) either best estimated RCS or whatever’s closest to official source.

@scorched_orbit

• Ground BR Limitations

Ground BR is 12.7 at its highest, while air BR is 14.3. There is a massive outlier there, and especially if Gaijin does add 5th gens, it’ll make the outlier even more. They would need to add a whole new ground BR, especially for SPAA, because realistically, the SPAA in-game would not stand a chance unless they majorly buffed every single SPAA — which would make all 4th-gen and 4.5-gen jets useless.

Gaijin would have to add SPAA with a longer range of 20–40 km, which still wouldn’t guarantee kills. They would need non-binary radar detection, limited passive detection (IRST-style detection cones, bearing-only tracks, cueing radar where to look), and a higher BR, which would be a problem for regular vehicles and tanks. It would also cause a realism issue because 14.3 and 15.0+ BR would intersect.

Some vehicles they would have to add:

US PAC-3, DE PAC-3, RU S-300PMU-2 (or heavily nerfed S-400), GB Sky Sabre (CAMM-ER), JP PAC-3, CN HQ-9B, IT SAMP/T NG (ASTER 30 Block 1 NT), FR SAMP/T NG, SE PAC-3, IL David’s Sling.

These are the only SPAA systems that can realistically threaten 5th-gen aircraft.

Stealth fighters won’t be invisible, especially not to anything with infrared search and track (IRST). The current top tier SPAA/SAM we have are perfectly capable of at least seeing it within the Ground RB maps we have today. They can also target anything flying within 30-40 km. It’s not like we have 300 km ground maps.

Whether or not we can actually hit them is another story (at least, for the SPAA/SAM that doesn’t rely on just ARH and has ARH + IR guidance).

All of the SAM you mentioned only really bring additional engagement ranges, nothing to note of improvements to tracking or anything of the sort.

@scorched_orbit

• 4.5 Gen Is Already Pushing WT’s Limits

The top tier is absolute chaos from what I’ve seen. You have missiles that basically are gonna kill you no matter what (R-27ER). SARH and ARH are OP without chaff working correctly. Every missile has a massive no-escape zone, so it’s a lot harder to survive, and most people shoot ARH missiles at you after spawning (AIM-120C). If 4.5 jets are struggling with basically unavoidable BVR pressure, missiles that you have to react perfectly to avoid, and reduced ability to play aggressively, imagine what stealth + better missiles would feel like.Text

Chaff works correctly… Are you even bothering to notch and include evasive manoeuvres or are you just flying straight or perpendicular-ish and hoping for the best? A missile’s no-escape zone not only depends on its motor and launch aircraft it also depends on you the target. If you’re slow? Of course it’s going to hit you. The R-27ER has a NEZ of about 17 km from rear aspect when fired high and fast (Mach 1.5+). The R-77-1 is slightly more at 19. Everything else (bar the MICA?) is around 13 - 15 km.

Also, lol.

[scorched_orbit]

Saying everyone will get “equivalent missiles” doesn’t fix anything.
Missile parity doesn’t cancel first-look or first-shot advantage, especially in WT where early awareness decides fights long before missile stats matter. And only the U.S. has the F-22. Everyone else either gets their own 5th gens or some F-35 variant, which means top tier becomes F-35 vs F-35 most matches, or the F-22 gets toned down so it doesn’t dominate. Neither outcome is good.

On stealth, we don’t have hard public RCS numbers for modern jets.
Everything out there is a narrow estimate from specific angles or frequencies. Treating stealth as “pick a number and move on” just turns it into a simple detection-range modifier. That works for the F-117 because it’s a bomber with a totally different mission profile.
5th-gen fighters aren’t about “hard to see at one angle” — they’re built to degrade tracking, guidance quality, and engagement timelines. The F-117 is not the same category.

Saying 14.3 aircraft can fight an F-22 at medium or close range misses the point.
5th gen exists specifically to avoid fair medium-range fights. AESA, IRST, and datalinks don’t remove that advantage — they just mean the jet won’t stay invisible forever. It doesn’t stop the F-22 from getting the first shot.

Same with SPAA.
Extending SAM range only “works” if stealth is treated as binary. At that point you’re not balancing 5th-gen behavior — you’re balancing a slightly stealthier 4.5 gen that just gets spotted later.

And about the chaff thing, because this keeps getting twisted:
I’m not saying chaff should be an off-switch. In real life it degrades tracking as part of a full EW picture. In WT that EW picture isn’t modeled. WT has a very simplified chaff system, so its effect often feels negligible unless timing and geometry are already perfect. That’s a modeling limitation, not a skill issue.

Chaff is supposed to create competing or false returns that degrade the radar track, not instantly break it. Modern missiles do try to push through chaff, but they aren’t immune to it — especially SARH.

That’s the core problem with adding 5th gens right now.
Either they get flattened to fit WT’s current mechanics, or the game mode has to bend around them. If you flatten them, they stop behaving like 5th gen and become just very advanced 4.5 gens.

[scorched_orbit]

@Code_649

You need to keep in mind that the F-22’s AIM-9X and AIM-120D won’t be added on its own. There will be “equivalents” (depending on who you ask, the next-gen IIR and radar missiles USA has is subpar compared to everyone else; at least in the context of what the F-22 uses) in the game by then, making this “advantage” (if we can call it this) a non-issue.

scorched_orbit:

Even if Gaijin gave every F-35-operating nation access to their own missiles (GB, IL, and JP), the only ones that could realistically be considered better than AIM-9X or AIM-120D are Japan’s AAM-5 and, if Gaijin adds planned integrations, the AAM-4B. And even those aren’t universally better — they just trade strengths.

On top of that, only around 8 out of the 10 WT nations even have access to 5th-gen aircraft, and only three countries actually operate their own true 5th gens: the US (F-22 and F-35), Russia (Su-57), and China (J-20). Everyone else either ends up with F-35A/B variants using AIM-9X and AIM-120D, or don’t have 5th gens at all.

[H_ngma]

@scorched_orbit

only around 8 out of the 10 WT nations even have access to 5th-gen aircraft

Which ones do not? The only questionable one is Germany since their F35s are not delivered yet but they are supposed to start next year so depending on when the update drops that might not be a problem. Sweden? They can just get it via Denmark or Norway if the finnish ones dont arrive in time and France has the Dutch and Belgian ones

[F-16D_Barak_II]

@scorched_orbit

chaff is basically just for show 99% of the time

You need to notch the missile, not the radar

@scorched_orbit

AIM-9Ls are the best AIM-9s in the game.

AIM-9M, hello?

@scorched_orbit

The F-22 mainly uses AIM-9X and AIM-120D

Until recently, the F-22’s primary IR missile was the AIM-9M
https://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2001059788/

@scorched_orbit

If Gaijin did add AIM-9X and AIM-120D, it would be way too OP

9X Block II is already in game on ground vehicles, AIM-120D will most likely be as easy to notch as any other ARH missile

@scorched_orbit

I’m 11.3 getting put in 12.7

Lie (or playing arcade)

@scorched_orbit

The only “stealth” aircraft in the game right now is the F-117, and the only thing it has going for it is missiles have a hard time locking onto it — that’s it.

Surprise surprise, one of the first stealth jets isn’t actually very stealthy

@scorched_orbit

Ground BR Limitations

what is the F-22 gonna do in grb? maddog ARHs at spaa?

[noister]

The same dcs slop which cant model missile proxy…

What would be interesting is the upcoming official f35 moduke, not some mod slop

[Night_Trapper]

I was just wondering how it looks in another game…
For these machines, we will only be guessing what their data is for a long time, this will be secret for a long time…
And the stealth system?
AB/RB markers, clearly displayed up to 10 km, then I just need to be closer than 10 km to any enemy vehicle in the game and I shine like a Christmas tree again…
Maybe the Simulator would need to be improved, but just go to the AirSim forum and I will quickly learn that this mode is stagnating…