I’d rather have x6 .50cals over the current MG151/20 and even easily x4 over the MG/FF’s.
These are performing so poorly due to their outdated nerfed code and bad ballistics. Makes no sense.
2 Likes
| MG/Cannon | Penetration (mm) | Velocity (m/s) | Ammo Storage | Rate of Fire (round/s) | Time to Spray (s) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| M2 .50 cal (Late belts) | 28-30 | 874-911, 1036 (everything except M23, M23) | 425 | 12.5 | 34 |
| ShVak 20mm (Standard belts) | 28 | 800 | 120 | 12 | 10 |
| Mg 151 20mm | 26 | Unsure | 200 | 11.67 | 17.14 |
| Hispano Mk.II | 26-37 | 822-853 (AP-T, HEI) | 125 | 10 | 12.5 |
So .50 cals get slightly better velocities (outside of M23 which is not the majority of belts) and more time to spray (on platforms that generally do not do well in long dogfights) as a trade for massively worse damage? Meanwhile cannons get to do massive amounts of damage with a limited amount of time to spray, even though their aircraft excel at quick and long dogfights?
YES, and you also have LOTS of Cal. .50, you can easily outrange shoot them, you can shoot whenever you want, with ease of aim, and the damage isnt bad as you want to say.
Pilot skill, there are different planes with different strength.
You now wrote the numbers yourself and yet are still blind, you are just so biased. Its not worth to concidder the topic. (Well it wasnt from the beginning, but thats a different story.)
1 Like
Your comparison is completely moot. It would be OK if planes didn’t have multiple .50 cals.
For example compare any P-47D with 8 .50 cals and Bf 109 G-2 with 1 MG 151 and 2xMG 17. Which one has more firepower?
Thats why there is one second burst mass designation in the game.
Also MG 151 has basically the lowest MV of all you mentioned - 705-805 m/s.
3 Likes
They have fantastic firepower. Everytime I get a good angle on someone they’re either dead or terminally crippled.
You were talking about single 20mm-armed fighters. The 109 E-3 has two, and they’re quite bad in every regard. Very far apart, only 60rpg, bad ammo, low velocity, and even firerate is poor at ~500rpm. There’s a very good reason why it’s the same BR as the 109 E-1 with 4x 7.92mm.
That has two 40mm cannons.
Which is entirely irrevelant because at any given BR, .50cal-armed planes will have more guns (2-3x as many), each with higher RoF on average, and far greater ammo reserves. Sure, a .50cal may not destroy an engine like a 20mm hit would, but it never has to because it’s putting out several times more bullets in the air.
You can fire accurately from much further away.
With their much smaller ammo reserves and half as many guns most of the time?
By the way this is the early 12.7mm HEF, which had also 1g incendiary filler alongside the RDX explosive. Actually, most of those other shells should also have quite a bit of incendiary filler, so this is not a 1:1 comparison.
I’ve seen this happen a lot to me, my only recommendation is to just turn away and go for a reversal or maybe bait them into friendly SPAA. Of course the fight much more boring then.
Can also bring someone else along (in a squad) to chase them down.
Neither MG FF is what I’d call “strong”. Their poor performance leads to some very good flying fighters though, like the 109 E-4 - a far more important set of capabilities than “it shoots good”.
And even in that plane I’ll get as close as I can to guarantee good hits and not waste the very few 20mm shells it carries.
To complete this chart:
MG FF/M has 675m/s velocity on its Air Targets belt; Type 99-1s at 588m/s on all shells, and Type 99-2s (only found at 5.0 and up to 6.7) at an unimpressive 750m/s. Ho-5 20mm are even worse at 740m/s. Ho-103 12.7mm are also very low on this table at 780m/s and high drag.
2 Likes
Well it should historically even be 585m/s to my knowlege actually.
20mm cannons kill in 1 tap regardless of context and circumstance.
Proof:
Spoiler
This is a satire post.
1 Like
You’re right, we don’t, but the fact remains that this debate has been dragging on since the old forum thread. Countless other issues still linger unresolved, yet nothing really changes.
I would like to add that bullet velocity only matters for the first round in the belt. The M23 could have 10000m/s velocity but if the first round in the belt is AP it’s going to follow the velocity of AP. Gaijin did this so you wouldn’t have random rounds that fired at way higher velocities than other rounds which I think is dumb.
You would think it’s the P-47. But unless you have a sustained burst on something important. you’re mostly going to be striking the wings with API-T which basically do nothing. Even in slow stall fights where you have enemies cross the nose. There are multiple times my guns rake across an opponent but do minimal damage. But I’ll fight any cannon armed or even machine gun armed aircraft and I get tapped and my entire plane turns to mush.
Using kills as a metric when you’re hitting essentially a bunch of blind people is not good form.
But lets use this video actually. Because this shows my point to a T.
For the first plane. dumped 50 rounds on the first plane. Now I’m 99% sure not all the rounds hit but lets say 10 smacked him, again. we’re not counting missed shots here. That’s not productive.
on the second pass, You took roughly ALL CENTERED 20 rounds to just set him alight. Not even a pilot snipe So over 30 rounds on target for a kill with a vast majority of them being ALL CENTERED and aimed DIRECTLY at the important bits with no worries for convergence or anything of that matter… For the second plane, it took 20 rounds all centered on directly his fuselage to actually set him alight. For both aircraft. These are sweetheart targets too. You aren’t booming and zooming people. You’re dumping EVERYTHING into this guy.
Here’s a funny too. Just as an aside.
On the outboard wings (Not the wing section of the wing root but the two others) 7.62 does the same damage as API-T on the skin. On the spars it’s iffy but it can opaque yellow it on a single hit.
It kinda shows that if you’re stuck striking the wings you’re doing piecemeal damage, even with a bunch of .50s. You’re doing dookie damage unless you hit something important (Like the point I’ve been making before.
Now what about the Ki-44?
Using ONLY the two wing mounted guns. I tore apart a P-47 in a few rounds.
My F6F kill. You’ll notice something… I am missing a lot of ammo. And it says gun jammed. If you’re thinking what I’m thinking. Yes. At the beginning of the match I purposely jammed one of my guns to ensure I was firing at the enemy with only ONE GUN
One japanese fifty cal beats eight American fifty cals.
Here is .50 cal on tank which has lower RoF and only one barrel but it still does the damage - TBF wing rip.
It’s most likely just a bug.
While all shells start with the same velocity, each shell has their own ballistics and slow down at different rates.
So there’s no real reason for that to be intentional.
It also effects gun penetration because the velocity is higher or lower than it should.
This might be a bug that‘s as old as the game itself.
I was surprised, only one of the shells is that slow. The FF/M HEI is even faster at 750m/s, I think gaijin fucked up somewhere.
My dude, you just need the same advice as this guy:
Nah its just because Im playing a P-36 at 5.3 lol, its just too slow to keep up. It out turns them all though so if they do try to fight me they’re dead.
1 Like
Ah, I see that now. Sorry about that, I looked back to see what I was responding to but not the full context.
The wiki has 2x 7.7mms for some reason lol (for the record I don’t use the wiki for everything, but running war thunder just to check out a vehicle usually is too annoying for me due to my overheat-prone laptop).
Except the rate of fire difference for the M2s (pretty much all WWII planes iirc) to any 20mm isn’t that large, and the number of guns nor the extra ammo outways their poor damage.
Accurately is relative, and the damage you’ll do isn’t much.
Corrected with the flash powder (assuming a similar RE factor): 1.361-1.522g TNTeq (still lower than what the M23 should have)
Tbh I forgot about that. The updated table would be:
| MG/Cannon | Penetration (mm) | Velocity (m/s) | Ammo Storage | Rate of Fire (round/s) | Time to Spray (s) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| M2 .50 cal (Late belts) | 28-30 | 874-899 | 425 | 12.5 | 34 |
| ShVak 20mm (Standard belts) | 28 | 800-815 | 120 | 12 | 10 |
| Mg 151 20mm | 26 | 720-785 | 200 | 11.67 | 17.14 |
| Hispano Mk.II | 26-37 | 853-880 | 125 | 10 | 12.5 |
The .50 cal now barely has a velocity advantage (if it has one), with the only thing left being the number of bullets.
Except that goes under the assumption you are in the scenario of being near-directly behind the enemy with them not realizing you are there long enough so you can spray enough bullets.
Two other people are already shooting at him so we have no clue how damaged he actually was. Mixed with what percussion cap stated before.
According to server replay only hits TBF sustained is from my MG. First hit was in engine area. Wings were untouched till rip.
Hit registration and tracer sync doesn’t matter for server replay because server counts damage only for hit it registers and on replay it looks like it registered only my hits.
Does anybody want to TLDR the last 100-150 comments for me so I don’t have to read pointless bickering
Dovah and SpeclistMain: “M2 Browning .50 Cals don’t do enouugh damage. (Dovah): Japanese 12.7mm HEF Rounds do more damage and rip wings off more” (Speclist): “M2 Brownings should do the same damage as a 20mm”"
Me and PercussionCap: “Browing .50 Cals do less damage individually but you have far more guns with far more ammo, with much better ballistics, so they have broadly equivalent firepower to planes with 2x 20mms and 2x MGs, but do their damage a different way”
Repeat lots of bickering about whether a wing snap is a “better” kill than an engine/fuel fire and loss of control surfaces, and nitpicking about exactly where the rounds hit, and differences between certain guns and shell velocities and aircraft
4 Likes
This is what I agree with
1 Like
My Zeros are also quite slow, the P-36G is probably slower still.
Ho-3 - 400rpm (feel free to write this one off as it’s only found in a few Ki-45s, probably the slowest aircraft 20mm in the game)
Type 99-2 - 490rpm
Type 99-1 - 516rpm
MG FF and FF/M - 520rpm
Hispano Mk1/Mk2 - 600rpm
AN/M2 - 600rpm
NS-23 - 600rpm
MG151/15 and /20 - 700rpm
Hispano Mk5 - 750rpm
AN/M3 - 750rpm
M2 .50cal - 750rpm
ShVAK (synchronized) - 750rpm; (unsynchronized) - 800rpm
Ho-5 - 950rpm
The only 20mm cannons that fire faster are the Ho-5 and ShVAK, both affected by poor ammo capacity and the former affected by subpar ballistics, belts, and damage.
The Hispano Mk5 and friends are generally only found at 5.7 and above, bar exceptions like the fucking Wyvern and some crappy attackers like the Firefly Mk5 and Brigand.
MG151/20s have awful ballistics, and the 15mm model is only found on ONE fighter in a configuration you’d actually want to use, the ones in gunpods suck.
There’s only two cannons that fire faster and the majority are at 600rpm and below.
1 Like