ragepost lmao, American 12.7s are some of the easiest guns to use in the game, you can easily get a fire on planes even if just a few rounds hit, meanwhile they seemingly made mg151s shoot confetti
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The TNT equivalent is maybe the destrutive power of the explosion, the brisance.
Blast perfomance would be equal or better but the pressure from 1g of either flash powder or explosive isn’t going to do all that much to an airframe.
20mm rounds create roughly 15-20cm sized holes in an airframe from the pressure with a multitude of explosive filler.
Just check this out. On the left image you can see the result of a 20mm Mineshell with impact fuze, striking a He 111’s vertical stabilizer. On the bottom the exit hole.
The round explodes on the surface and the blast carves an entry hole of around 550cm² and an exit hole of rougly 200cm².
That’s with a round that has 18-20 times the explosive filler of a .50cal API and still 8-9 times of M1 Incendiary.
If the round explodes with a delay inside the stabilizer, like in the picture on the right, the pressure built-up causes massive damage within.
Just shows, how even 20mm explosive rounds would just tickle a bombers structure.
.50cals structural damage would basically be insignificant in comparison.
Only against wooden structures the blast effect can be quite effective:
This kind of damage shows how the 13.2mm FN explosive bullet was supposed to destroy a plane with a single shot. Since at that time the transition from wooden to metal aircraft just started.
And why Germany decided that 20mm Mineshells were necessary to defeat the next generation of full metal fighter aircraft.
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HUHHH A GENERALIZED STATTTTMEEENNTTTT??? WHAT’S THAT???
You need to learn to read fully or fully comprehend what you read. Because no one is saying you said that.
Here’ I’ll reword it for you.
Because his entire argument boils down to “See I sprayed a near perfect burst directly into the fuselage of this one guy. There’s nothing wrong at all!”
On the opposite hand you DIRECTLY SAID I CLAIMED this.
When it was literally the EXACT opposite of what I said.
There’s a difference between. A GENERALIZATION and claiming someone said something they DIDN’T
Your arguments GENERALLY go ‘Well I hit him where he turns into a burning wreck.’ Now, because you take generalized statements and act like I’m saying you said those exact words. I’m ITERATING SPECIFICALLY. THIS IS A GENERALIZATION. YOu are constantly talking about fires or engine damage. Something you SPECIFICALLY need to hit. Compared to any other country’s 12.7mm to 20mm where you can hit almost anywhere and do something that either cripples the enemy aircraft or out right obliterates it. ESPECIALLY IF THEY’RE WING MOUNTED WEAPONS THAT ARE MORE LIKELY GOING TO STRIKE THE WINGS. Your videos literally show that your bursts go ALL into the fuselage because you fired into mostly slow opponents and you matched convergence. The only time that was admitted that .50 can actually do damage.
No you don’t. Because I still gotta hit in two spots and hope I set you alight or kill your pilot. WHILE matching convergence. Meaning I have a narrow window to hit a dude where it hurts compared to almost any other gun where you just have to hit SOMEWHERE
You have to be pin-point with .50s. Not 20mm! I don’t recall .50s snapping wings in a deflection shot with a single round compared to almost every other single gun in the game.
American mains demanding to be buffed and more powerful than everyone else again.
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Ive literally read this through 5 times and I still am confused by what you are trying to say with most of it.
My convergence is set to 500m, now since most of those clips are in GRB, how many of those kills were at 500m? Most of them were well within 300m. Heck you can even see in especially some of the P-51C clips the rounds going wide because its closer than my convergence.
Then there is this kill: https://youtu.be/QzS6VS6pkYE
Thats in ARB, Try doing that with a pair of 20mms, its a lot harder to do, and you chew through your ammo doing it.
You have to be pinpoint with ONE .50 round. Yes, if you are firing one or two you need to be accurate.
But you AREN’T firing one, or two, or four. You are firing SEVENTY FIVE rounds every second. With such a high RoF and such good ballistics, in most cases where you hit one round, you are almost always hitting at least two, unless you hit the very back of the aircraft/surface with the first, which as I said you shouldnt be. Because you should be aiming ahead and letting them fly into the literal wall of lead you are putting out
As for cannons, yes you can get one or two hit wing snaps. Because you need to have some benefit to the drawbacks of low Ammo capacity, and ballistics. Even the Ho-103 has noticably worse ballistics than the M2 browning in exchange for its HEF rounds - you again would struggle to make that same 1km snipe on that bf109 in the video clip above with those. There is genuinely no better gun than the Brownings for making those types of shots.
And thats another reason people are arguing against you. You havent used enough of these guns to see their drawbacks. You only see the strengths of them causing you to explode. You dont see how much more lead they had to pull to hit you than you need to, and you don’t see the fact that a few short bursts to kill you used up a significant portion of their ammo.
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That’s pretty bold of you to assume that I did not understand what he said when he was literally telling you why .50cals shouldn’t do what you want them to do. Also telling you that they in fact do structural damage. And yea I am repeating things that someone else pointed out while indicating that am not the author… aka quoted him.
You right, they don’t balance off of realism, that doesn’t mean that they should magically come with HE filler for US .50cals. Rather they should just get Incendiary shells to work properly.
Yes, it’s one of the trade off’s of having .50cals that do not have HE filler? Thousands of ammo that do less damage with the benefit of ROF and immense spray possibility?
You don’t have to hope that you hit something important, you just point your gun towards the enemy like in any other plane n spray lol.
Emulating them to have TNT equivalence is a terrible idea. Probably cuz you are not seeing how it would be implemented.
That would mean moving US .50cals to Realshatter and having them not only chainsaw wings and tails but also having the ability to torch planes, pilot snipe, kill engines, ground pound, immense spray capability, crazy ranges and amazing ballistics.
You magically have the best gun in the game.
No you don’t, you can spray all over the place. You do not recall seeing .50cals snapping wing in deflection shots cuz they shouldn’t do it at all lol. Even for cannons that’s not common, it usually takes 6-10 rounds atleast and more than that for an average player.
You are trying to compare a 12mm HEF-I that has 3.06g of TNT equiv to API-T or I that has no HE filler, why?
If you wanna properly compare them use the same round atleast?
You only see fragments there (pictures you linked) cuz they have HE filler as they had IRL and due to how Realshatter handles HE rounds that use it.
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It was annoying because the airfield AA in air RB always deducts a small amount of HP value for all parts of the plane every time, including the pilot. That was not caused by an actual hit, but rather a game mechanics. It could be made that the pilot starts to lose pull only after the HP has been downed below 50%, the same should go for the control rod damage.
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DTIC AD0139640: Effectiveness of Small Arms Incendiary Ammunition at High Altitudes : Defense Technical Information Center : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Very good report on 50cal incendiary effectiveness.
Also this one:
Effectiveness of Incendiary Ammunition Against Aircraft Fuel Tanks
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Can you make a summary pls? I cant be bothered to press the link and read myself.
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That would make it a lot better, yeah.
Wrong.
You mean the Jap 12.7s, German 13mms, and Russian 12.7sthat have almost a 1km range mixed with AP and high explosives can’t do the same? Lol.
Right because 3 cannons or two cannons magically don’t have spray capability. The same cannons and even MACHINE GUNS that can snap wings in two hits or less?
"You don’t get it dude! YOu can just spray and you MIGHT hit something important with .50s!! But with cannons you have to be pin point! Just ignore the fact that if they hit the these giant barn doors called a wing with their high explosive rounds they completely cripple them! "
Let’s not forget multiple countries like Japan, Russia, and Italy and germany have a mixture of both their machine guns and cannons so you’re having a bunch of 1 shot and 2 shot guns hitting and spraying at you. For german 13mm machine guns. you can get belts that are literally just all IAI that have explosive filler. Heck. Spraying even with TWO guns is just fine
When you have two, three, or even FOUR guns on your plane that can just crap damage on their own
The only advantages the U.S. .50s get are slightly faster velocities and slightly better range than other weapons. But then you run into Shvaks that hit out almost over 1km. And most ranges you’re fighting at is less than a km! Heck. I argue sub 600 meters. Unless you think the entire gameplan U.S. planes should have is just HEAD ON PEOPLE.
LOL. The MG 131 has bad velocity and horrible ballistics.
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Lower velocity with worse falloff. Nowhere near as consistent and much harder to hit long range shots. But you wouldnt know that because you haven’t flown any of them
I mean you’re welcome to spray with your 20mms if you want. See how long your ammo pool lasts you doing that. One? Maybe 2 kills?
WILL hit something important* 4500rpm btw
Most planes with 2x 20mms have backup MGs. Im so scared! Those super scary 2x 7.7mm MGs are totally doing so much damage!
900ms while most cannons average around 750ms initial velocity on their rounds - again with much worse dropoff.
Keep focusing entirely on the damage the round does and ignoring all the drawbacks, that’ll totally get your point across
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Insane ammo count? You can squeeze the trigger whenever the enemy is vaguely within position to be shot at and never worry about running out of bullets. This makes jinking .50 call aircraft harder than 20mm aircraft because while someone in a yak or bf109 might be fighting to saddle up, wear their opponent out and finally go for the burst… the hellcat, corsair or mustang can just shoot every time they think they might hit without sacrificing long-term impact.
Incredible saturation (the enemy MUST fly through your bullets, while with 20mm guns it’s possible for planes to fly in-between your shots if your lead was slightly off - quite likely with Mg151/20 x 1, but even with hispanos on spitfires).
And sure, maybe 10 cannon rounds guarantee a kill while 10 .50 cals only turn the wingroot orange but… Having your wingroot turned orange means jinking becomes much harder and rolling out of the way becomes a rather uncomfortable business.
This amount of wing damage + damaged stabilizer made the difference in whether I had the roll rate to reverse an opponent or not in one of my dogfights I lost. I could quickly roll right just fine, but reversing my turn to the left was slow enough that my tried and true approach let my opponent remain in control.
Was it an instant kill? No. Does it matter? In furballs maybe but 1vs1, it made a massive difference.
Do these not exist?
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That is really common with Type 99s especially, they have some of the lowest RoFs I believe, so enemy planes flying through your rounds happens all the time, even though you get two of them.
Even the planes armed with Quad Type 99s run into this issue more frequently than you’d initially expect lol.
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Yeah no they can’t and don’t have all these capabilities in a single round which is pretty much what you want for the US .50cal lol.
You have, it’s just inferior and will eat all your ammo.
Berezins have roughly 200-350 ammo in 1 or 2 MG’s on most planes, so if you sneeze while holding LMB you may waste all your ammo… you have 6-8x the amount in most US aircraft.
Jap 12.7mm has more ammo than Berezins but way worse ballistics or ground pound / AP potential
I mean you tell me who can spray for a longer period of time, a Yak 3 or a P51-D10?
P47 or Spitfire? F4U4 or A6M5? F2G or Bf109 K4? Re.2005 or F4U4B?
What a disaster, most nations used 20mm and 13.2/12.7mm with HE as their main armaments, almost if these offered superior firepower. IAI belts that have explosive filler? 20mm Mineshells? How dare they.
That if u literally do not move, you have so much time to dodge ShVAK’s at this range.
Also if the enemy had .50cals in this scenario then you’d be actually in trouble.
Yeah… it’s not like you have 1.8k rounds… just slightly faster velocities and better range.
3.4k rounds? Lol that’s nothing… 0 benefits from it I guess.
It’s not like the planes that have such armament are any good either right…? P47’s, F4U4, Bearcat at 4.7 (lol), P51D-10, D30, P51H (best prop in the game btw), P38’s that also have 1 20mm and airspawn. US suffers.
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The damage shown is easy to dodge with. Especially against fat american planes. The only exception was the damage to the elevator.
If you were struck with one HE round your plane is completely ganked. What you showed was not only survivable, but if you didn’t have your elevator struck you would be able to turn and fight back.
So it’s either “I’m damaged a bit but I can still fight back.” or “I just had my wing tip separated from just two shots and I’m dead now.”
I’d much rather be shot at by U.S. planes because at least they have to score multiple hits on me for anything appreciable…
Italy and Japan almost always pair their guns with 12.7mm. So you get two guns that I said before can two shot you. Towards the later half of the German tree. They pair their guns with 13mm that have similar damage output to japanese 12.7mms. Russia usually carries 3 cannons (That can hit out to a km away btw.) or they have their guns supported by backup 12.7mms which are also two shot kill.
So you can argue disingenuously all you want. But you know I’m not referring to 7.7s
Even still, you have two 20mm cannons that can one shot you.
Yes woohoo. It can shoot a bit farther. Big woop. You tickle them once or twice. Do you just sit still and let people take potshots at you?
I can count the many times I was struck by Russian 12.7mm and had my wing completely blackened or severely damaged even from almost a 1km away.
And you need to hit them once
My spray does a tickle, Their spray snaps wings.
When their machine guns that are literally the same caliber as mine can somehow snap wings in two shots and have belts filled with rounds that have their most damaging projectile while my plane is stuck using AP and it’s most damaging round barely consists in the belt. Then yes. I have problems,
I can say the exact same about .50s. Just dodge bro.
When most of your planes are fat, are highly dependent on positioning, require a sustained burst with the same weighty flight models and the game heavily favors one-shot, two-shot kill guns. Yes. All that ammo goes down the drain trying to hit a target only for a good chunk of your rounds not doing anything besides tickling some parts of his plane unless you’re lucky to hit a fuel tank or the pilot.
I barely even consider ‘engine shots’ as kills anymore unless the guy either has his engine completely crapped out (Which won’t happen unless you hit the engine multiple times) literally has no backup or is skating the ground over half-the-map away from his base.
Again. If Gaijin is going to make other nations machine guns have the capacity to completely detonate my plane in just two or so shots. While they have belts FILLED with the round that does the workhorse damage. Meanwhile. U.S. late-war universal belts are just chock full of AP and only two of the rounds in the link is actually incendiary. I don’t see why having the M23 in the universal late belts being able to hit a bit harder would be a bad thing. Especially when in a WORST CASE scenario in terms of explosive mass. It would still have the damage of HEF Italian 12.7mm.
But, If the U.S. had a better belt with more incendiary I wouldn’t bother. But currently one of the best damage dealing rounds the U.S. has towards wing structure barely exists in one of it’s belts and does piecemeal damage. But at least it’s better than tracer.
It’s almost like every country in WWII recognised that rifle calibre rounds are not that effective against aluminium aircraft, so they switched to 20-30mm cannons. America, joining late into the war (showing up in North Africa in late November of 1942) didn’t get the memo, and were still using .50 calibre because they only showed up when the Allies were winning. Oh, and for the Pacific Front: Jap planes were built with origami paper, so of course .50 calibre would poke holes and shoot down their planes.
In case you forgot, Rank I and a big part of Rank II, the other nations did not get very powerful rounds. They got rifle calibre rounds like the 7.92mm for Germany, 7.7mm for Britain and France, and I believe the French were using 7.5mm as well. America is quite literally the best, because while other countries are playing Hitmarker Simulator, your .50 calibres are ripping their planes with one brrrt. Americans also get the advantage of only using one type of calibre, which means you don’t have to learn anything. Same ballistics, same everything. Which means as long as you have three brain cells, you can lead the same exact way every single time and guarantee an elimination. All other nations have to deal with swapping calibres every five seconds, going from rifle calibre, to 20mm, to 30mm, to 45mm, back down to 22mm, and on and on and on. Americans can stay ignorant, everyone else has to play, “Guess That Shot”.
Read up above. Sadly your’re going to need to read almost 200 posts for full context.
Firstly. “Brrrt”-ing people only works if you hit something important. The vast majority of your kills will either be pilot snipes or fuel fires, but that’s if you strike the fuselage. Everything else will hit the wing.
Other country’s cannons and machine guns can hit you almost anywhere else, and with high favorable belt compositions that favor wing structure damage the most. You wind up with some countries where their Machine guns just consist of the most damaging round it has.
Other countries machine guns can do two shot kills, gaijin balances off of gameplay. Not realism. If it was realistic. airframe durability would vary GREATLY. Some airframes would be a pure struggle bus to KILL while some aircraft could just be torn to pieces easily.
Similarly. you have aircraft with machine guns of the same caliber with literally barely any filler (Enough to rub inbetween your fingers) somehow able to lop off wings with two hits.
Incendiary filler is explosive. But it’s dependent on the compound with some compounds having %56 TNT equivalency.
M23 has over 5 grams of filler. While Japanese and Italian ‘HEF’ rounds contain 0.6 to 1 gram of explosive.
Going besides realism. America really has no belt that actually uses incendiary to any significant degree besides stealth.
If gaijin added an Air targets belt for U.S. aircraft that consisted mostly of Incendiary and one or two AP-IT It would be much better. But as it stands. if the U.S. belts are just going to consist mostly of AP. I think the stray incendiary should hit much harder.
Have we played the same game? Most machine guns are doing hitmarkers and barely tapping your wing. Of course 20mm will do more damage, it’s a bloody 2cm wide round ripping through your wing. It’ll do more damage than half a centimetre.