M1A1 Abrams (Chieftain Replacement Trial) - Because at this point, why not? Part 2

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M1A1 Abrams - Chieftain Replacement Trials

Introduction

The origins of Britain’s Chieftain replacement programme lie in the ever increasing obsolescence of the Chieftain platform against Soviet threats through the late 1970s and 1980s. In the early 1980s the British had rather urgently adopted a development of the Shir 2 as the Challenger 1, importantly though, the Challenger 1 was not a replacement for the Chieftain, it was always intended to serve alongside it. Therefore, in the mid 1980s, the British government began examining options for the actual successor to the Chieftain. After much bureaucracy and many committees, the decision was narrowed down to 7 or so options:

Option 1. Retain Challenger 1 with improved rifled bore gun (CHARM) and improved fire control system (СHІP); replace Chieftain with Challenger 2 Mark 2 with CHARM rifled bore gun.

Option 2. Retain Challenger 1 with improved rifled bore gun (CHARM) and improved fire control system (CHIP); replace Chieftain with Leopard 2 with smoothbore gun.

Option 3. Retain Challenger 1 with improved rifled bore gun (CHARM) and improved fire control system (CHIP); replace Chieftain with Abrams with smoothbore gun and incorporating planned improvements (including up-armouring).

Option 4. Refit Challenger 1 with new turret and smoothbore gun; replace Chieftain with Challenger 2 Mark 2 incorporating smoothbore gun.

Option 5. Refit Challenger 1 with new (Leopard 2) turret and smoothbore gun; replace Chieftain with Leopard 2.

Option 6. Refit Challenger 1 with new (Abrams) turret and smoothbore gun; replace Chieftain with Abrams with smoothbore gun and incorporating planned improvements (including up-armouring).

Option 7. Retain Challenger 1 with improved rifled bore gun (CHARM) and improved fire control system (CHIP); replace Chieftain with Challenger 2 Mark 2 incorporating smoothbore gun.

A few more options were considered, including some rather silly ones put forward by the penny pinchers in the treasury, including ‘can we keep the Chieftain until the 2010s’, but luckily these were not entertained particularly seriously.

As you can see from the above, for the first time since the Shermans were sent over with lend-lease, Britain was seriously considering opting for a foreign option to form the backbone of its armour. This would obviously come with huge implications in terms of domestic industry, employment, and sovereign capabilities, but the Thatcher government at the time was growing increasingly weary of prioritising British industry for military contracts, with consistently late and over-budget results, for equipment that was not necessarily up to the same standard as our western allies:

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Regardless, the choice was not to be made lightly. Despite very heavy lobbying from Vickers, who were developing what was to becoming the Challenger 2 out of their own pockets and bleeding cash while doing so, much deliberation by the government and MoD was undertaken. If Britain was to throw away their sovereign tank industry in favour of a foreign vehicle, it must be done with absolute certainty that what they are buying is worth it. As such, in September 1987, the two foreign frontrunners for adoption, the Leopard 2A4 and M1A1 Abrams, arrived at the ATDU for mobility and gunnery trials.

The documentation covering the trials is long and thorough, but generally speaking, both the Abrams and Leopard were well-liked. The Leopard was praised for its mobility, reliability, and firepower, but its frontal armour was considered insufficient and combustible ammo above the turret ring was a significant weakness in the British view. As well as this, the thermal imaging was considered wholly inferior to that of the Challenger 1, the TOGS.

Likewise with the Abrams, it was well liked and its mobility and firepower were highly praised. However, similarly to the Leopard, ammunition above the turret ring was a large mark against it, the thermals was considered unsatisfactory, and also the gas turbine engine was hugely inefficient in terms of running costs and fuel efficiency. Both the Abrams and Leopard were also going to be considerably more expensive than the Challenger 2, too.

The poor frontal protection of the 2A4 was the nail in the coffin for the British adoption, but the Abrams was seriously considered, backed by a strong American lobby. The final choice was narrowed down the the Abrams and Challenger 2, and, in the end, sovereign British industry was put first and the Challenger 2 was chosen as the successor to the Chieftain.

Specifications

Spoiler

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Images

Spoiler

Sources

Spoiler

Chieftain Replacement Options – Programme Costings and Appraisals

Vickers Correspondence

Governmental Correspondence

Replacing the Chieftain - The Tank Museum

Chieftain Tank Replacement (Hansard, 21 June 1991)

https://international.gdls.com/english/products/ABRAMS/M1A1.pdf

4 Likes

-1 Britain does NOT NEED ABRAMS. It needs Challenger fixes so that their own tanks are competitive and do not need sloppy copy paste.

29 Likes

That’s cool.
Adding it won’t impact the fixing of existing vehicles either, as adding vehicles are a different group.

-1 No.

Well-written suggestion, bad idea

12 Likes

could be cool in the future but gaijin definitely needs to prioritize fixing the challengers at the moment

3 Likes

+1 because I love chaos and feed off misery.

3 Likes

This is the issue with the game right here, if there’s any issue with one tree they shove it all to US and Germany by just handing out leopards and Abrams. No more of this, it kills the game and for people like me with several trees, im not trying to play the same stock grind 6 times in a row.

TLDR: -1

1 Like

Personally I think an Abrams tank of a Commonwealth nation would be better (Australia), but as that’s currently been achieved, I’d say -1.

4 Likes

+1 for seeing more chaos in the War Thunder forum, and vengeance for unreceived Merlin Mustang and Sabre,
but -1 because we somehow got Australian Abrams.

±0

2 Likes

I decided to go after the Abrams so I’m currently at 11.7 challenger 2. Outside of having better quality thermals how the hell does this thing fair against the M1A1 as they are in the same br lmao it’s extremely slow, having worse ammunition and very small first stage ammo like 4 ammo and after that you reload slower than t-72s.

1 Like

i mean it gets better turret armour i guess? other than that its just gaijin bs again

Turret armor is only useful when hull down, Abrams is just quick enough to avoid getting hit, the Challenger 2 even after two engine and track upgrades, it’s still extremely sluggish so it buys enemy more time to shoot it. The turret cheek might be marginably better when facing common rounds in that br, Abrams just superior everywhere else, like they should be at least .3 br apart

2 Likes

Interesting.

Where was this objection when France got its second, third, fourth, and then fifth F-16 through Benelux?

And I take it now that France has received the Leopard 1A5BE you’d be objecting similarly to the 1A5BE (Mexas) and 1A5BE (P)? As France receiving a Leopard 1 has already been achieved.

There seems to be some strangely inconsistent opinions regarding copy-paste (sorry, ‘unique variants’ - the British Abrams lacks a .50 cal and the commander is wearing different socks or something).

4 Likes

Service vehicles aren’t the same as a trial vehicle or a prototype. Nor did I state I wanted all of these F-16’s, I actually stated before that I would have liked two, maybe three at most.

Once again, personally I value actual prototypes over trial vehicles, and service vehicles as even more important for addition. I don’t see how that’s an inconsistent opinion? Also, most, if not all, of my Benelux suggestions are made for an independent Benelux tech tree (or a folder one).

I am of the personal opinion that captured and/or trialed vehicles should not be added to the game. Domestic prototypes/variants and service vehicles hold a lot more value in my opinion.

1 Like

Unfortunately, despite your personal opinion on the matter, trialed vehicles do exist in-game and are not particularly uncommon.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion and I’m not trying to say yours is fallacious. However, in my opinion, perpetuating ‘a potential addition for a host nation is not wanted / has been made redundant due to a subtree addition’ is only going to further legitimise complaints that subtree additions are directly impeding additions for the host nation itself.

2 Likes

Joke take: we can make the forum explode with a bigger bang if we get British Abrams after Canadian Leopard 2.
So we can delay one or two turns before we get British Abrams.

Well, theoretically, the addition of British Abrams itself sounds if we exclude those copy paste arguement.
Because there are some vehicles that went test stage for being considered but didn’t bought already exists in some tech tree as precidents.

But eeeehh, I want to see Chally 3 Not-Tech-Demonstator faster than our Abrams because we somehow got an Australian one, or some strange modification of Chally.

How about Al-Hussain Falcon?

I mean, maybe we can get Abrams at some moment, but seems this isn’t ‘urgent’

-1
I’ll commend the writing of the suggestion, but I don’t think it’s a very good idea. I’m not the biggest fan of patching up trees with unmodified foreign trial vehicles that weren’t pursued. If it at least had some changes made specifically for the UK, I could get behind it.

I don’t like the idea of adding trial vehicles in general because it becomes an excuse to add any service vehicle to any nation, especially when factoring in sub-tree options and what vehicles they trailed.

At least the Aussie Abrams entered service, and got slightly different rounds from their US counterparts.

4 Likes

What does this Abrams actually do for the British tree? Why do we need a second M1A1?

Being okay with an Australian service one (or two) (with at least a cool camouflage) but not an additional one that was only trialled and never adopted is a valid opinion, no? Should we get a Leopard 2A4 too?

The UK tree is now de facto a Commonwealth tree, which justifies Australian, Canadian, Indian, etc. additions (and we can disagree about whether that’s a good thing all-day long).

However, trialled vehicles are generally widely disliked in the community (see: Swedish T-80U or any of their top-tier helicopters), particularly if they’re bland copy-paste additions that detract from the uniqueness of the tree, like the Swedish T-80U or this British M1A1 (something like the trialled Pakistani Oplot could have been fine if modelled correctly IMO (given there is no Ukrainian tech tree) but Gaijin chose the lazy route instead).

3 Likes

+1 here are my reasons

  1. This M1A1 isn’t a HC or AIM so it would be 11.7 which would give us a more mobile medium for our 11.7 lineup.
  2. Since the most basic Abrams in the commonwealth (Australia) is a modified AIM (12.0) we cannot get anything at a lower BR than that, so a British A1 is the earliest Abrams we can get.
  3. With how Gaijin have treated the Challenger 2’s I feel like they should be 11.3 and our 11.7 lineup can be this and the British T-80U (THAT WE BOUGHT AND TESTED L27A1 AGAINST GAIJIN HINT HINT COUGH COUGH)
  4. It’ll be funny
  5. I want the British M1A2 because I don’t like the Challenger 2TD 2019/Challenger 3 we have in game
  6. 7
1 Like

Well we have the Vickers Mk 7 and might be able to get a 7/2 with the Rh 120 so yes