To start, let’s discuss what is happening with the APDS round for mainly the FOX. (because everyone and their mother wants to talk about it)
Balance - The fox, as an armored car, is fine (in my opinion). It can do its job well and it should always be able to. The problem it has at its br is the APDS round for it is good, really good. Like better than 30mm APFSDS from more modern ifvs kind of good. 110mm is a massive amount of pen for a round fired from a 30mm cannon. It is a fact that 30x170 APDS is overperforming, and I am not disputing that.
What can be done - The most obvious choice to better balance 30x170 APDS is to reduce it’s effectiveness. This is something that should be done, 30x170 should not be able to clown on every tank that was built around mobility just because the round is overperforming. If anything you should have to earn those shots with vehicles like the fox by flanking, not by running in guns blazing.
Another choice is to remove APDS from things like the Falcon and AMX30 DCA so they can fill a more important SPAA gap below them. This would allow something like the Falcon to return to its SPAA duties by bringing it down to a place where it can more reliably hit planes. (and open up a space for newer, more interesting spaa)
What I think is appropriate for each vehicle with 30x170 APDS (this is an opinion post afterall) -
Starting with British ones
- Fox stays at 7.7, but with a reduction of the effectiveness of APDS. This means the Fox faces enough armor that it can pen with APHE anyways while also being at a low enough br to not mess with the role of the Warrior. Additionally, the fox should always be a VIABLE light tank. It should be able to pen and destroy tanks at its br, but it must take actual skill to do so efficiently.
- Falcon goes down to 8.0 or 7.7, but loses APDS and has a belt with 3 part APHE and 2 part HE (To prevent the APHE from being too prevalent).
- Warrior goes up to 8.7, but with APFSDS with similar qualities of the APDS in game right now. (Idk what the actual performance of the 30x170 APFSDS would be, but for balance this is an option)
Now the AMX 30 DCA. Down to 8.0 or 8.3, the falcon should always be at the same br or one br lower than the DCA because the DCA gets radar. Same treatment with the APDS the APHE.
2 Likes
It cut me off,
AMX 30 DCA - Down to a br above or the same as Falcon, and with the same ammo limits.
Nonsense. The Falcon prototype was not successful because it could not carry enough ammunition. That is the only important thing that can be said about this vehicle.
The DCA, on the other hand, was sold in smaller numbers and the ammunition capacity is known to be 1,500 rounds.
It’s annoying when gaijin create alternative facts, but it’s totally incomprehensible when the players demand it!
https://www.arcaneafvs.com/FV433Abbot.html
https://weaponsystems.net/system/114-AMX-30+DCA
I was talking about limiting the concentration of APDS for the belt, not it’s ammo capacity
I agree. It’s fine as it is.
You literally just said it’s fine.
Are you disputing the historical accuracy of the round’s performance? Do you have a source to back this up?
You. Just. Said. The. Fox. Is. Fine.
I agree the 30mm 110mm pen APDS is overbearing when loaded into a Falcon, but like you said yourself this can easily be fixed by mixing non-APDS rounds into the belt.
The Fox has an awfully slow RoF and low caliber APDS is infamously unreliable damage wise. It doesn’t need a nerf to it’s ammunition.
3 Likes
I haven’t looked for sources to back up a reduction in damage for the round because I prefer the game to be balanced. Balancing 30x170 to not have the same damage potential as other auto cannon rounds considerably larger than it is more important than historical accuracy imo. I have used the fox and falcon, and their damage is consistent in my experience.
Something like the fox’s hull is fine at its br. Its round is not. I made the points about the fox because people advocate for its increase in be to more accurately match its round when the fox itself as a vehicle would not perform well at a higher br. And if that damage was really needed for the fox and warrior to be effective, then they should add 30x170 apfsds. Even if it is not exactly historical.
I made the suggestion for a dilution of the APDS in the falcon’s belt because even with a lower amount of pen and damage, APDS with that rate of fire is still too useful for anti tank purposes. And making the falcon more focused on spaa what it should be. Being able to rip apart tanks is why it gets put up in br, which just makes it harder to use as a spaa.
The Falcon already has a dilution of 1 in 4. Which does make 3x more APDS than a Gepards fully higher pen APDS belt, and also 4x longer TTK/TTLuck than a Gepard if 100% relying on the APDS.
Warrior needs it’s ATGM fixed. The fact it uses the gun sights for LOS and not the launcher makes it useless for hulldown (especially since the ATGM can be shot and OHK the Warrior by any 20mm or up ammo…).
Fox… Fox relies on low ping low packet loss (and shrubbery), that is my issue with the Fox as it currently stands.
Fox really only has long range sniping going for it (for the “Silent” fast kills) if you have a high ping.
VS 1-2 shots for Barrel to break within 0.5sec of seeing an enemy. Then the drive to side, hope there is no enemy, stop and shoot the ammo or people out of the vehicle 1 by 1. Or you could just have any other light tank do the same, but not need to stop, barrel multiple tanks and then side pen them all at your leisure. If the Fox had more dampening or more mass then I could see it being OP as fk. Which is probably why the devs struggled to find a way to nerf it.
1 Like
I have high ping, I don’t struggle with the fox. And the only tank with an autocannon of similar caliber around the fox’s br (id consider similar cal as 23 up to 40mm) is the Veak 40, which does less damage and has less pen. (and thats for full caliber 40mm btw) Every light tank around the fox’s br pretty much exclusively uses 20mm.
The Warrior’s ATGM is not part of this conversation. If it is bad, that’s out of the scope of this discussion.
The reason the Falcon’s APDS belt is so overpowered is because it gets to have its full ammo load include APDS. Yes, the 35mm APDS is better, but things like the Gepard, Chieftain Marksman, ITPSV, and PGZ09 only get 40 rounds of the stuff. The Falcon can fire its APDS for however long it still has ammo.