If those two move as well then their peers like BMPs and whatnot could be argued to be moved as well. Then their peers and the list just goes on and on.
I think more vehicles have IR/TV missiles at around that BR but I can’t check at the moment.
I don’t think that’s viable considering LWS doesn’t help you against that and you have no radar to tell when something is up. Those things pretty much nullify any AA capabilities of systems with HE-VT.
Bottom line, Gaijin is balancing by earnings a vehicle makes, so everything that gives you more chances of getting useful actions is going to affect balancing, doesn’t matter by how much.
That’s a benefit of premiums for sure, but not all modifications are so important, so you can get away with half spading them in most cases.
Also, one could argue TT vehicles might have better crew levels due to the time spent grinding, which might improve their overall performance as well.
That said, I doubt that the premium status of 2S38 is only to blame for it’s atrocious ~0.7 KPS and that it would go up to 1.0 KPS or something if it was a TT vehicle.
If you really want the details of everything you did @rainy2000 … 2S38 is currently 10.3.
This is a criticism of your system, and I do not endorse your classifications.
Spoiler
ESS without thermals: BR 5.0 on light tank.
ESS with thermals: 8.7. BMP-2M.
ESS on 2S38: - 2.7.
LWS: 9.0 on an MBT.
LWS on 2S38: -2.7.
High HP/T: 9.3 with Begleitpanzer.
6.0 with M18.
2S38: -2 to -4.3.
Thermal generation: BR 7.3 on Wiesel, it’s even gen 3.
2S38: -3.0.
57mm proximity:
Unguided: 8.0 with Chinese SPAA.
Guided with search radar: 9.0 for a slightly worse proximity from M247.
2S38: -1.0.
APHE: 8.3.
2S38: -2.0.
APFSDS: No other BR, so 2S38 sets this standard.
Reload below 2 seconds? Yes.
2S38’s size: This one is reliant on gun and mobility performance, so Begleitpanzer…
Gun elevation: Seen at BR 1.0.
2S38: -10.3.
Ricochet chance: BR 1.0… this one’s tiring.
Traits that have never impacted the BRs of vehicles in War Thunder, ever:
Round amount, gun elevation, ricochet chance, thermal generation…
Now, what really matters:
Begleitpanzer mobility, WITH a 258mm penning APFSDS round, WITH thermals, and of a decent size.
1.0 BR below HSTVL due to HSTVL having double mobility and a notably better round.
Comparative proof:
BT-7M is 1.0 BR higher than BT-5 purely on different mobility.
Ariete AMV is 0.3 higher than Ariete where the only difference is a slight increase in mobility.
M1A1 is 1.0 BR higher than 120S where the only notable differences are mobility and hull armor. M1A1 has a lower generation of thermals as well.
There are more examples where there are 1.0 differences between vehicles whose primary difference is mobility, or primary differences are mobility and relatively minor armor/ammo differences.
“Oh here goes Alvis antagonizing another person again”
Do you see how that doesn’t look good?
I am in no way spreading or meaning to spread ‘Russian Propaganda’.
If you’re saying I’m having a skill issue, you should do a test on yourself first.
As I said, @MotorolaCRO and I had reached the same conclusion.
Ok?
I’ve expressed that here:
Yes, I have expressed that here:
Sure.
Bouncing? Most 9.3 MBTs don’t have ultra highly angled frontal armour.
And I have expressed that the 2S38 will more likely see the tank and react to them first.
???
What does BR mean? What is it suppose to do?
The BR system is a system where a numerical value assigned to each vehicle, which represents its in-game combat effectiveness. Matchmaking pairs vehicles with similar BRs to keep battles balanced.
Ok. So it’s their overall performance – their capabilities.
So if a tank ‘A’ has better turret rotation speed (what you’re saying, this aspect of a tank doesn’t matter) than a tank ‘B’ of the exact same kind, tank ‘A’ will be OBJECTIVELY better.
Sure, it may not move up in BR, but it’s still OBJECTIVELY better.
Now let’s give tank ‘A’ better gun depression, from -3 to -10. After all, you said that this attribute doesn’t affect the BR.
Now let’s give tank ‘A’ gen 3 thermals instead of just NVD. After all, you said that this attribute doesn’t affect the BR.
Now let’s give tank ‘A’ ESS. After all, you said that this attribute doesn’t affect the BR.
Would you still say tank ‘A’ should be the same BR as tank ‘B’?
It does matter at any BR, like I have expressed already:
But that’s the thing, it does have an effect.
I can’t tell you exactly by how much, but for most vehicles, the more selection there is, the better they are. Maybe not enough to warrant a whole BR difference, but enough to make a difference in certain situations.
The Jumbo 75mm would struggle a lot more if it didn’t have access to APCR, for example.
Oh I’m aware.
That’s strange.
So if I shot 10x 57mm APFSDS rounds per 2 seconds at your tank instead of just one per 2 seconds, there would no difference in outcome?
I understand your logic here.
I agree with that.
But against aircraft, 90 degrees is preferred.
Sure, but -5 compared to -10 is a big difference.
Sure.
No, not really?
dual 40mm proxy is better against aircraft, but 57mm proxy is better against helicopters because it has the range to attack them.
Please explain why you are comparing the M247 with the 2S38 when I was only comparing the 2S38 with the HSTV-L?
Or… the increase in BR that is caused from the addition of Proxy is small (which is what I was going for) but not negligible. That is the difference.
Giving proxy to an 8.7 version of the 2S38 would give it tremendous capabilities, like you have said.
Perhaps 1.0 BR increase or something.
I agree with you for the second 2S38 version, the 8.0 one.
That would certainly increase it by 1.3 or so.
But it doesn’t immediately stop increasing the BR of the 2S38 once it’s past 9.3
It may be less relevant, but it is still a benefit.
If the current 2S38 (10.3) didn’t have proxy, I think it would be perhaps 10.0, a 0.3 BR difference.
Again, still a difference because at the end of the day, 3-5km range proxy is still quite relevant even up to 11.0.
If the 2S38 was a 12.0 vehicle, the addition of proxy would be much less useful, but still has value. It wpuld destroy drones and incoming munitions more easily. It could also kill careless aircraft and helicopter rushers more easily. That slight benefit may increase the ‘accurate’ BR from 12.0 to maybe 12.1 (Still 12.0 in-game, but it’s better). There’s still value added to it. It doesn’t just disappear because you don’t see any uses for it. A benefit (however small) is still a benefit.
@rainy2000
I’ve already shot tanks at slower speeds using Begleitpanzer, HSTVL, and 2S38 and in general my performance has increased because I’m not blinding myself with muzzle smoke.
Rainy, I did read everything in your post, and things I don’t address here are not ignoring you. It’s just I’d repeat myself.
IF all the things you claimed matter truly mattered then 120S would be 10.7 - 11.0 currently, Ariete AMV and standard Arietes would be the same BR, BT-5 and BT-7M would be 0.3 BR or the same BR, and so forth.
I get you want those things to matter; it’s great IMO to want those things to matter. They just don’t…
M1A2 would be 12.3 because of proximity rounds Leopard 2A5+ tanks don’t have if we went by your standards.
At some stage, you have to acknowledge minor difference between vehicles do not matter, and especially for the context of War Thunder where meta strategies just don’t take a lot of things into account.
Edit: A major example of this is flight performance and air RB BRs.
F-18C has among the best flight performance at 14.0, F-15E has the worst flight performance at 14.0 [and Su-30SM at 14.3].
In 1v1s this matters, but in air RB this is a trait that high end strategies don’t take into account.
I see what you mean.
Let’s say the 2S38 should move up, and we’ve agreed that it should be 0.7 BR lower than the HSTV-L.
That would mean that the HSTV-L should go to 12.0 (which we both probably don’t agree with).
However, if the 2S38 was already at 10.7 (where it’s suppose to be), and the HSTV-L at 11.3, then there would be no issues.
If we build ourselves every tank from scratch (noting their attributes and evaluating their importance with respect to their other attributes) with the basic premise that I had done with the 2S38 and HSTV-L, I think that would form a reasonably good BR system in one go.
If any new vehicles appear, then you go through the process and it should always fit at a reasonable BR.
The problem is that Gaijin doesn’t do this method, and so the necessary BR range to balance every vehicle fairly is basically impossible.
I’m not sure if you understand what I mean, so please let me know.
At the moment, I think the best we can do is lower or increase the BRs of specific vehicles that may be a bit too good or too bad for its current BR.
For example, the Turms III going to 8.7 may be better for the balance of 7.3-9.7 than if it were to stay at 8.3.
Oh, there is. AJS37, A7D, A7E, AJ37.
However, they only have AGM-65As, which have that 3km min lock range on moving targets that I was talking about earlier.
Yes, which is mostly why I said that it may be difficult to tell if they had fired on you in the first place.
True, though I think it depends on the context. If the 2S38 is aware that there is an A-10 up, and can visibly see it launch mavericks, then I think they can intercept or avoid them.
Yes, that is one way of putting it.
True.
That is also true, though I also think a good number of premium vehicle purchasers also either buy crew skills or already have decent crews in the nation that they are purchasing for.
I know a good number of people like to stack their lineups by adding more premiums to them.
The M1A1 HC and M1A1 Click Bait is a good example in my opinion.
I guess.
I really do think it’s better than whatever the 3 million or so games are dishing out.
@rainy2000
You know what? I’ll list the features I use in matches that generate my positive performance in non-IFVs.
The following is not what I want to matter, but what I’ve developed as tactics from watching good players on video hosting sites, as well as learning from experience.
Things I use:
Mobility, probably the most important thing to me now.
Best available ammunition in penetrative quality along the 0 - 60 degree band.
Laser range finders.
Laser warning systems against tanks.
Gun depression.*
Thermals on forest maps.
Things I rarely use:
Laser warning systems against aircraft; my tactics preemptively defeat air to ground weapons usually.
Smoke rounds; while they’d help my advances and harm the enemy, I’d have to deal with reloads.
Smoke grenades; they help enemy advances more than helping me. I probably launched smoke grenades less than 5 times in the month of August. I am a visibility absolutist.
Proxy rounds in non-SPAA against aircraft; usually dedicated SPAA is up to deal with them, and my tactics sometimes block visibility of aircraft.
Things I don’t use:
ESS. It either harms my team’s visibility because I’m too far ahead, or I’m facing things with thermals. It’s also a giant spotlight for my position. I have ESS uninstalled on many of my tanks, including premiums.
Proxy rounds against tanks.
Less penning ammo on tanks with superior ammo. I’m not going to use HE rounds on tanks as a rule. I’m not going to use APHE if it’s penning 30%+ less than APFSDS, let alone the 45 - 70% less of 2S38’s APHE across the range of angles.
Maybe, but it really depends on the BR system.
Currently, it’s a mess. All these tanks are suppose to be balanced within a 12.0 max BR range, which causes a lot of balancing issues. With the system I’m referring to, we’d probably already have a max BR of 15.0 or so.
I don’t think so.
The Ariete AMV is better than the Ariete (P) in a couple key aspects.
Perhaps. I’m not really sure.
Probably a 0.3 BR difference.
Glad to hear.
In reality, I think Gaijin probably initially places a vehicle by comparing it somewhat to its appropriate surroundings, and then balances it out via vehicle stats (which can be useful but I can’t say it has been working very well).
For example, the Turm III came out at 8.3, probably because most things at 8.0/8.3 have a stabilizer, APDS, and alright mobility. The Turm III is honestly a 8.7 vehicle from my experience, and what others have said about it.
However, it’s still at 8.3 because of how poor the win rate for it is.
No, it would still be 12.0 because a 5s reload proxy shell with no IRST lock or gun elevation is not a huge benefit. You’re implying it would go up to 0.3 but I’d say it would be a 0.05 increase.
Again, still a benefit, but not a benefit that would increase the 12.0 Abrams’ BR by itself.
I believe you would agree that it should, but I’ve explained how Gaijin balances things.
I don’t really agree.
F-18 has better dogfighting potential, whereas F-15E has insane thrust-to-weight, making it one of the best climbers and MRAAM spammers in the game at the moment.
It depends.
If they both have time to position themselves, I believe the F-15E would win most times. It just has too much energy to play around with.
In a strict dogfight setting, yes the F-18 would win.
So I would look at it in an ARB setting. The F-15E would generally be better, but in GRB setting, maybe the F-18 is better (though I doubt that too).
Yes, that is a key aspect. It is one of the main reasons I believe Russian MBTs are worse than NATO counterparts.
Yes, that is also quite important. One of the main factors that affects a vehicle’s BR.
Yes, this is quite important in long range maps or ranges > 600m with APFSDS (in my opinion).
Though it is not as important in close-range engagements.
Not really sure about that one.
It’s can be useful, yes, but a lot of the times you won’t have enough time to react. Often half a second after you have received it since after that you’ve already been shot by the person who lasered you.
I think it’s a lot more useful if you survive the shot or they miss since you are more able to identify where it came from, though.
Sure I guess.
In some cases, I agree. It really depends on the situation though it can be useful if given the correct one.
Again, I think it’s quite situational. Smoke grenades are great for when your breech or vehicle is disabled and you want to get out of the exposed position before you get shot again.
It may allow the enemy to approach you, but at least you are not dead.
They can also be used to cover your retreat, or when you’re flanking behind enemy lines. You wouldn’t want to get shot in the back, after all.
I think it depends. Most SPAA are self-centred and only focus on what they can kill. They usually don’t care in the least about your safety as long as they get the kill.
Self defence is best, and so if there’s a plane coming for you, proxy can help way more than a distracted (with another seemingly unthreatening aircaft) or unaware friendly SPAA.
Again, very situational.
I wouldn’t use it in most cases, but if you’re in a 9.0 vehicle (like the M60A3 TTS), and are fighting 8.0-9.0 vehicles (most of which don’t get access to thermals), it is a huge benefit.
For top tier (where thermals are everywhere), you can still use it to your advantage by deploying IR smoke and then using ESS while retreating from that position.
If they push you, they will have to turn off thermals to better see through the IR smoke, just for them to not realise that they had passed through it and now in ESS smoke. You will then be able to see them while they wouldn’t even notice that they left the IR smoke.
Not sure when you should ever use proxy rounds against tanks, unless you’re in one of the SPHs with a lot of TNT equivalent.
The only use case I’ve had with proxy rounds against tanks were against open top SPAAs behind rocks / general cover (such as the M163), or against Panthers / T-44s (they have pretty weak roof armour) when they were hull down and difficult to directly hit.
I think it depends on the HE and at what BR. Low-pen HE (like the ones found with the M4A2 sherman) have enough TNT equivalent to overpressure open-top tanks, which comes very handy because APHE tend to not fuze against thin armour.
Sure. I agree that the main round with the 2S38 should be the APFSDS.
But in some cases, like getting a wide flank, you’re going to be able to one-shot opponents or, if not, kill them much quicker with APHE:
This example may not hold true in most cases, but I think you’re going to need at least two or possibly three (if you don’t aim exactly for the crew) to kill the 2A4 with APFSDS. But I think you can easily kill this 2A4 with APHE in one or maybe two shots by shooting at the general location of the crew.
2A4s, sure. 2A5, no.
The 2S38 is 10.3, maybe 10.7 if Gaijin decides to uptier it.
The 2A5 is 12.0, so it’s impossible for it to see it naturally.
The 2A4 is probably one of the hardest 10.7 NATO MBTs to deal with, but it’s still possible:
You will take out their driver and horizontal drive. You are then free to take out their barrel, or flank and kill their turret crew, or proceed to continue killing their driver one by one until it’s dead before it gets to repair the turret ring (or just destroy the turret ring again because you have 144 rounds, 0.5s reload, and no first-stage ammo stowage to worry about).
If you shoot far away enough, you can even get its engine along with the turret ring, though I wouldn’t rely on it:
I think the driver + horizontal drive is much more consistent.
I still think this leads to questions and problems but elsewhere, as you’re just moving the compression around. We simply need more BR steps which is obvious by all of the vehicles that can be described as: “too bad to be at their current BR but too good to be one BR step below”.
May be, but it also might introduce some unbalances when it comes to other vehicles and how they’re looked at.
I think against most targets, launching at like 4km would still be pretty optimal, as the missile would only travel a few seconds before acquiring track lock. You’d have to be extremely vigilant to notice what’s happening if you were a ground unit without radar, like 2S38.
Trying to notice a plane 5-6-7km away with 65Ds when you don’t have a radar feels like a very inefficient way to spend your attention.
Might be the case but we’ll never know for sure.
Bottom line, I highly doubt 2S38 is where it is stat wise just because premium vehicle = godawful players. This is what plenty of people assume without even looking at premium vehicles’ performances when compared to TT copies.
At this point I believe it’s yet another years old myth, just like BVM dominating top tier.
We have global stats on it and in ~80m games it managed to get 0.76 KPS, which is far from great as well. Sure, it could be better than what it’s shown in the stats, but you could argue that to be the case for most vehicles when looking at their stats.
Also, German premium 2A4 (~70m games) has extremely similar stats as a TT variant (~50m games), so we are talking about really big datasets when comparing things.
I think if we use that system, then it would indirectly create higher BRs for better performing vehicles, since the max BR would be based on comparison rather than what Gaijin wants the max BR to be.
Yes, which is also what I’m advocating for.
Turm III’s ‘true’ BR could be 8.55, which means it should be closer to fitting into the broad category of 8.7 instead of the broad category of 8.3.
Until we divide the BRs further, or increase the max BR range, then this disparity between ‘bad 8.3s but too good for 8.0’ and ‘good 8.3s but too bad 8.7s’ can’t be solved.
I mean, sure.
But I think you can agree that it’s better for one vehicle to suffer from a BR change than every vehicle in one BR bracket having to suffer from one ‘undertiered’ vehicle.
I can remember the 8.3 Puma or 8.7 BMP-2M wreaking havoc, but now that they’re at 10.3, they are not exactly that good (especially the Puma), but at least it isn’t causing any problems.
I mean sure, though it really depends on how far away the target is moving from the original locked position.
Sure, but the funny thing is that non-radar SPAA / vehicles can use the ‘Air Alert!’ gimick to not only tell them the enemy plane’s azimuth, but also its altitude. There’s also a mostly unknown feature of it which I think a good number of players don’t know about it is that you will get a red arrow marker around your peripherals that points towards the direction of the last-know location of the aircraft too.
However, this does require the 2S38 / SPAA player to know that there is an A-10 to begin with, or for them to routinely use Air Alert where their air spawn / airfield is.
I agree with that, though if you notice your team dying to an A-10, you could possibly try intervening.
The biggest threat is taking out all enemy SPAAs and then assuming there’s nothing else that could hurt you. A-10 players would then rely less on the max range of Maverick Ds so that they can volley them faster instead of having to redo the setup every time they get too close.
I understand that, and maybe I’m overexaggerating its effect in GRB.
Though I can’t help to think about all the good qualities that the 2S38 has that somehow the average player doesn’t manage to utilize effectively.
I’d say the VCC-80/60 isn’t that great. Even though it can UFP most MBTs at or (definitely) below its BR, it suffers from similar post-pen damage of the 2S38, as well as the lack of damage against tracks, along with the 2s reload being quite lackluster at killing enemies quickly before they either manage to get back into cover, or shoot back with their reaction time. The lack of penetration against anything with reasonably good armour (basically any 9.7+ MBT) also makes it have to aim carefully at specific crew members or ammunition (which may or may not be impossible to kill given a situation)
Its statistics of 0.82 KPS for 140247 games in July being reasonably low according to my assessment above. (Quite underwhelming considering it’s used by Italy players, which are notoriously better than the average player).
I guess so.
And so I’m not sure if the similarities are because of the fact that tech-tree variants are usually played by more experienced players, but are hindered by the stock grind, or if those differences don’t really matter in the longrun.
Though you could argue that once you spade the tech-tree 2A4, you don’t have to go through it again, and so the number of games that are played using the unspaded / relatively unspaded version of the tech-tree 2A4 is negligible.
¯\(ツ)/¯
That might be the case but we must work with stuff we’re given and sadly Gaijin isn’t really keen to keep giving us more BR steps.
That’s right, decompression without more BRs is impossible task that will just shuffle it around to different places.
Fool’s errand that is.
Yes, but I more meant how people might start talking about other vehicles as a result of that and be like: Look, this vehicle moved up in BR which opens up the possibility of another, similar vehicle to move up as well to preserve balancing between them.
I don’t know how big of a “circle” seeker of those missiles would be looking at when firing from 4km.
Also, shooting up while moving might not be the best tactic for something like 2S38.
I started writing this but you did it already.
Spamming Air Alert doesn’t seem like the best of tactics and if you aren’t doing it often enough you’ll have big chances of missing the plane all together.
Yes, ambushing planes like that seems like the best strategy for vehicles like 2S38. You’re basically feeding off of pilots getting reckless.
Lack of radar there might help you stay hidden as well.
I haven’t played it unfortunately but I don’t think it’s that good either. I expected slightly more from Italian players though.
At this point those things are just a guessing game.
you dont get the point, even if you shoot that lfp it will do 0 dmg and that a4 will shoot you dead before you do your second shot, unlike that HSTV/RDF that oneshots all soviet tanks from all possible angles, those vehicles are way more cancerous than 2s38 ever was. As a light vehicle the 2s38 sucks because is not fast or agile enough and its gun doesn’t make for it, this is why bmp2 is a far superior vehicle and has a lower br, even btr80A is a better vehicle if you know how to use it. This 2s38 is just a vehicle that is hated by russophobic entitled and fustrated gringos.
Well clearly not – I have shown you that it is possible. You also have a 0.5s reload, and no Leopard player (unless he already knows you’re there) has a reaction time of <0.5s.
Sure, and I agree that HSTV-L / RDF-LT are great at taking out Russian / Chinese MBTs.
However, you are comparing the most survivable MBT at 10.7 (the Leopard 2A4) to the least survivable MBTs at Top tier (Russian and Chinese MBTs).
The HSTV-L and RDF-LT have to face the Strv -122B, 2A7HU, French 2A6, and of course the 2A7V, which all are extremely survivable against them.
They are just as difficult to kill (if not more) with the HSTV-L than the 2A4 with the 2S38.
Its mobility is mediocre for a light tank, but it’s adequate enough.
It’s not like the mobility of the M60 (which barely has any armour and has much worse gun handling).
Not sure about that. BMP-2M has to rely on ATGMs to kill things frontally.
ATGMs are generally worse than SABOT just because it takes time for them to travel to the target.
You will die much more easily than with the 2S38 if both parties know where each other is.
Oh you’re actually saying the 8.7 BMP-2 and 7.3 BTR80A is better than the 2S38?
Okay…
