Yep, the rounded vs sharp cockpit is a clear difference betwen the S-451 prototypes, and what I can find confirms that 2 were built. It’s just that the S-451 with the rounded cockpit and the Pionir are remarkably similar, and telling them apart is hard.
Made the first small update to the air tree in the OP: a few more images have been added, the Serbian MiG-29SM has been moved to 12.7, and a number of unique aircraft (all domestic jet attackers, the Gnat and the Sabre Dog) have been given fake in-game loadout charts in the interactive version linked above. Here’s an example from the most advanced attacker in the tree, the Orao M1A:
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+1, Yugoslavia would be a welcome addition to WT and it’s a nation I’ve wanted to see in game for years
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+1, thank you for recreating this topic on the new forum, probably the most viable next inependant tech tree that could be addded to the game !
And also the new thing I want the most in game since years !
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Why do we have two posts for the Yugoslav air tree??
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The one you posted is a post in machinery of war, it is nit a suggestion, just a showcase.
This right here is the “official” suggestion :)
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maybe i didnt see it, but i think there should be a j20 kraguj in there. the SOKO novi avion would also be a nice touch
Thank you for your suggestions, but keeping both of these aircraft out of the tree was a conscious choice.
As for the J-20 Kraguj, it’s a cool looking counter-insurgency aircraft but it’s just too bad for War Thunder. Compare it with the Hs 123 A-1, Germany’s 1.0 biplane bomber: the J-20 has roughly equal MGs, is a bit slower, with an engine that has half the horsepower, and 200kg of bombs instead of 450kg. With current WT balancing, it belongs at around 0.7.
The Novi Avion wasn’t added on the grounds of being a paper plane, as AFAIK the only parts to ever be built were some cockpit sections and even those were mockup.
I made the suggestion first. So considering that the Yugoslav Air Tree was passed to the devs a few years back, it surprises me that the mods approved of this one which also seems to have lesser planes.
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New forums = new posts
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Passed suggestions are passed and known to Gaijin whether new forum or not.
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Your post was passed quite a few years ago tho, a refresher for Gaijin isn’t bad if you ask me.
Greetings, as the tree maker I’d like to explain the reasons why I went ahead with making this suggestion while aware of your post.
- First, suggestions in the new forum are a blank slate. There are suggestions that were passed to devs in the old forums and passed a 2nd time in the new forums. Hence why suggestions like this one are allowed.
- Second, I didn’t know if your tree was being updated - this is especially important, because new planes like the MiG-29SM and the Orao M1A are crucial for the viability of a Yugo air tree in the current meta. The suggestion also allowed to me to add a bunch of additional info like individual info pages, sources, BRs etc.
- Finally, I want to address the “lesser planes” concern. I’m a realist in terms of my tree proposals - I want the best possible representation for Yugoslavia, but let’s be honest, no one would grind it if they had to go through almost identical planes or terribly performing trainers. Your tree is a “max possible” one, which has its place but the two can co-exist.
If you think any planes are wrongfully missing or have any feedback to provide, I would greatly appreciate it. But I’m someone who’s been researching Yugoslav aircraft for a year and a half, and I also waited to confirm no one would post in Suggestions before doing so myself.
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Just remembered now, here is another J-22 variant that can be added, the NJ-22 Orao, an afterburning two-seater variant.
INJ-22 is similar to the IJ-22 Orao except it is also do Reece roles ontop of combat training, also has a radar
Both the NJ-22 & INJ-22 Orao’s can have the option to either have the 23mm autocannons or no autocannons
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First before I address your points I still want to clarify that I am happy Yugoslavia is still being discussed in depth and that I know it brings satisfaction to see your work getting results and positivity. I am not at all against someone else re-suggesting the nation I was just a little confused that they allowed it, even if there’s a new forum, because a passed suggestion is regardless still stored in Gaijin’s suggestions database or whatever they call it.
With that out of the way I don’t agree with your reasoning for having lesser planes.
The tech tree I posted is a community project by a team I’m still part of (it’s inactive at the moment) called the WT Community Council and my superiors had direct contact with Gaijin. I was not asked to join at their beginnings but I quickly caught on with Yugoslavia and Poland.
The sources used for Yugoslavia are extensive books and manuals, so from them I can tell you that the so-called “identical” planes you might be referring to are not so, and you wouldn’t be able to tell through third party sources on the internet. Between the several IK-3 year models and the S-49 series there were important structural and design changes, such as redesigned fuselages, tails, new materials (from wood to steel) and engine improvements, so I have to refuse the points you made to @AspandaIV earlier. Both the DB-601 and VK-105 examples were completed and the 1938 thru 1941 models had enough changes to warrant them as separate planes. The S-49A prototype also differed from the production S-49A enough (couldn’t remember, have to dig again), and the S-49C serie 2 differed from the first one through having a more streamlined design and a better tail for high speed control, while the S-49C-2359 had a vertical wooden stabilizer. These are only a few out of many other instances.
As for trainers, in Yugoslavia’s context for the game, they are still important. Say you are a tanker sometime in the future with a 7.0 lineup, would you not want CAS with it as well? The trainer variant of the J.451MM comes into action here because it had rockets and bombs, not only the G-2. The same applies to all other trainers because even if they’re supposedly specified as “trainer aircraft” they are still quite mission capable and can have their appropriate BRs.
To me the most odd decision you made is leaving out some really important and unique planes such as the Hurricane with the DB-601 and a Hispano that made it 9 guns in total, or the unique seaplanes suitable for naval battles, the indigenous CAS aircraft like the UTVA Kobac or the UTVA Lasta 95, the various Yugo-exclusive bomber variants, etc. Instead you’ve opted to settle for much less in terms of originality, and your tree looks barebones. The only new thing your suggestion has introduced is the relatively new Serbian MiG-29SM and the Me 262 while greatly downsizing the tree.
Both can coexist yes, but know that if you don’t change it, some people who know little about this nation’s game potential may find themselves with a negative first impression if they find this suggestion because this is far from its greatest extent. It isn’t that much better than a sub tree like Israel. In your greatly sacrificed version of the Yugo tree I can only count two or three planes I hadn’t included.
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Alright, allow me to explain my reasoning on the various planes I didn’t include.
- First, the IK-3. According to my sources, the only differences between the prototype, first and second batch were minor changes in the wing structure, windscreen, instruments etc. (and a change to the Czechoslovak-licensed engine which performed the same). The only 12Y-powered IK-3 that would have a noticeable difference in-game is the No.7 delivered in April 1941, and it’s already included in the tree.
- As for the alternate engines, there is no solid proof of the DB 601 version having been completed. The consensus is that it was unfinished by the time of the German arrival and transported by rail to the Reich, but I don’t see the need to add an incomplete aircraft without any photos or evidence. When it comes to the VK-105 version, it would need to be built after WWII, which seems impossible to me given how no IK-3s survived the war meaning that they would need to somehow restart IK-3 production just for a prototype.
- As for the S-49s, I am aware of the smaller differences but legitimately speaking: would you grind the 15k RP and 80k SL or so to research a foldered variant for the purpose of a different stabilizer? Would anyone? How many Barougans and Yer-2 M-105R LUs do you see strolling around?
- When it comes to trainers, you can see the T-451MM is already in the attacker line at 6.0. The rest of the trainers would be dead on arrival due to speed or guns, with the exception perhaps of the PC-9M (which is still on the table).
- The Hurrischmitt is in the premium line already under its LVT-1 designation. Also the 20mm wasn’t installed in the prototype, installing a hub-firing cannon in the DB 601A was a tall order (Germans tried and failed) that the Yugoslavs didn’t have time to fulfill.
- The new CAS aircraft are designed as trainers first and foremost, and it shows in their characteristics. The Lasta 95 you brought up, for example, has a 300hp engine - if I’m not mistaken, that would make it the second weakest aircraft engine in the game, only beaten by the Po-2. That drops it straight to 1.0, where there are plenty of other Yugoslav planes actually designed for combat to do the job. Flying at <300 km/h with no guns to drop 2x 100kg bombs doesn’t sound like endearing gameplay.
At the end of the day I think we have differing philosophies when designing trees. I want every plane in my tree to be something I would actually grind for. But regardless, since I understand you’re passionate about Yugoslav aviation, I can also invite you to a server we have with the Ground, Heli and Naval tree makers to discuss the country’s equipment and we can have more in-depth discussions.
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+1
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Serbia seems to be finally close to a deal on buying new Rafales!
According to a couple of sites, they’ll be the F4 standard which makes sense given they’re a newer order. They might make for a decent variation for the tree in the future.
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Where there is Air, there must be ground.
+1
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I’m fortunate to own and fly a Kraguj in the real world and you’ve missed out the rocket rails there and understated the bomb load slightly.
Weapons loadout options from the flight manual are as follows:
Fixed guns: 2 x 7.7mm MKII Colt Brownings with 650 rounds each.
Inner pylon options:
2 x 50kg bombs
2 x 100kg bombs
2 x 150kg KPT-150 or S-8-16 Cluster bombs
2 x 150litre PLAB-150 Napalm bombs
2 x 12 or 16 L57 Rocket packs
2 x HVAR-5inch (127mm) Rockets
Outer pylons options:
2 x HVAR-5inch (127mm) Rockets
2 x VRZ-57 (57mm) Rockets
Its an angry little thing to fly in the real world and is a hoot to chuck around at low level, not sure I’d want to go to war in one however. I have all the info Gaijin could ever want should they ever decide they want to add it to the game…
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