The SAP-HEI Was designed for the L/60 (Lvakan m/36) And the L/70 (Lvakan m/48) Could fire L/60 ammunition although this required changing out alot of components to re-fit the L/70 (Lvakan 48) to take the Shorter rounds of the L/60 (Lvakan m/48) And couldn’t be done on a whim.
SPAA is a role within war thunder and shooting down aircraft rewards you and your team in the long-run. And its highly unlikely that the Dev’s will implement A-historical ammo (for these vehicles atleast.)
However there are records of the L/60 (Lvakan m/36) having APDS used on the Luftvärnskanonvagn fm/43 Although. That is not in-game yet.
If we keep going this route, the spawn cost of SPAA needs to be raised, or have the same system as planes and helicopters; higher SP cost for spawning with anti-armor ammo.
Interesting, thank you for the info. I was thinking that the rounds with modified longer cartridges and more propellant existed for L/70 Bofors guns.
We can’t selectively apply history when none of the actual gameplay is remotely according to historical doctrine, let alone usage.
Sounds like enough justification to give it to all 40mm L/60 Bofors in my mind. I don’t think we have that specific SPAAG - we have the Lvkv 42 with its single L/70 and the L-62 ANTI II.
A 42-round clip before reloading? Oh hell…
Yes it would be fun, because current WT gameplay forces SPAAGs to be TDs if they want to get to and survive being at the areas of the map where planes congregate, especially in non-radar tiers.
What’s 20mm DM43 and 20mm DM63? I’ve heard of FAPDS - lower pen but a lot more shrapnel upon impact.
SP costs of course should go up - but I think BRs should probably not for many of them and even go down for some. Partly to force-feed tankbusting SPAAG to the whiners who got them nerfed to their current state until they cry themselves to sleep, grow a set, and actually go kill them instead of complain. And partly because with current standards for setting their BRs, most would cease to be effective at swatting planes due to the whine-overreaction to them.
Why do you hate people who don’t want SPAAs to be more effective at destroying tanks than actual tanks? And why are you whining so much about effective tank destroyers being moved up in BR?
I’ll take an example of what this proposal feels like. Imagine an SPAA 2S38 but without APFSDS, at 9.0 because that’s where it would go. Under your proposal it would gain APFSDS, becoming equivalent to a 10.3/10.7 tank at 9.0 because it’s balanced off of it’s SPAA capability. Would that be balanced, fair, and fun?
Why should we not weight the ability of a vehicle to destroy tanks in a mode where you primarily destroy tanks?
It doesn’t.
God forbid people take issue with vehicles that are too effective at their BR.
Not true. People think they are OP because they have better reaction time, and they kill you instantly without any chance to fight back.
I strongly dislike anyone who would rather “whine first and adapt never” to any “problem” they have. I have seen too many vehicles or vehicle classes be butchered to service the laziness of such folk and such things never recovered in many cases. Or if they started to, more nerfs often promoted by the same people - it’s pretty damn clear such folk will never stop complaining and only find new targets. Because god forbid they realize they made a mistake and it was their fault they died…
Because while I very much like using autocannon SPAAGs to swat the swarms of light tanks infesting the game mode, they do still have to swat planes, and if their BRs move up too much, they no longer can effectively, like happened with the Falcon.
Funny - I was using the 2S38 as a perfect example of the ideal way to balance an SPAAG as “TD first.” Some say it’s undertiered and always compare it to the Begleitpanzer, but I’d suggest the latter is overtiered instead.
The light tank IFV swarms must burn.
It makes no difference to me whether my own tanks die in one side shot from an actual tank cannon or 10-40 side shots from an IFV/SPAAG - am I not dead either way?
Not as heavily. I didn’t say not at all.
Some people complain too much and need to be dealt with instead of continuing to be allowed to ruin the entire game because they refuse to adapt their tactics and/or vehicle usage.
And how is that any different than taking a single (APHE) shot to an ammo rack and exploding to a guy you didn’t know was there? You also have no chance to fight back there either, yet people accept that as “normal.”
I see it as blatantly hypocritical to single out SPAAG but not call out autocannon IFVs nor damn near every other tank hitting ammo racks.
Because they still need to be decent at killing planes, which is part of their job in WT. Unfortunately WT’s current gameplay means SPAA TD mode is their primary job outside SAM tier.
Current gameplay basically insists any gun SPAAG to at least be able to hunt tanks to be effective. You gotta go where the CAS is to be able to intercept them, which means going into the map and thereby being exposed to tanks from many potential sight lines. If you can’t at least shred tank sides/rears, which quite a few AAs throughout the ranks struggle to do, then your AA is mostly worthless. We have seen for many years now that nerfing AA has not made people stop trying to hunt tanks in their AA - it should be therefore clear that more nerfs are not going to change this behavior.
Thus, why fight the inevitable? Why not embrace and encourage AA hunting tanks and then redirect dev team effort spent fighting the behavior onto something more important?
If you want AA to stop hunting tanks, change the gameplay mechanics that encourage it - city clusterfuck maps, overperforming APHE spall, objectives all being random paint circles encouraging camping in/near at point blank ranges, and utterly delete the barrel damage mechanic. Also, give all AAs a short-range lead indicator to encourage them to hunt planes when they appear instead. Upend the spawn point system to be like Simulators so planes are present from the beginning as more encouragement to focus on planes.
No amount of nerfing AAs’ anti-tank performance will change player behavior. If it would have, we would have seen the general behavior change in the playerbase by now.
You cannot “balance” aircraft regardless of their SP cost. I have realized it for years. Why? The best counter to a plane is and always will be another plane. SPAAG and SAMs can react to an enemy plane, but only your own planes can pursue the enemy plane.
I would copy what Sim does - give each player 1000SP at match start, remove all point doubling, and remove all ability to earn more SP. When you run out of them, whatever you use, that’s it.
You cannot expect to have SPAAG and SAMs focus on aircraft from match start if aircraft are not allowed from match start.
Because planes are powerups currently, people usually do not take SPAAG as first spawns. This encourages people to rush to planes as fast as possible due to no defenses being up yet. If you want people to use those defenses but not hunt tanks with those defenses, you gotta give them their intended food and empower them to easily swat it.
Change the mode name. I am dead serious. Combined Arms is the game’s future, and thinking like yours is its past.
Both planes and tanks are missing the vast majority of their real objectives, forcing them to be on each others’ throats 24/7 when neither was designed to be such. Tanks are obviously not built to defend easily against planes. Planes historically and today have a wide variety of non-tank targets to kill, which this game does not currently have in the Combined Ground mode - you cannot expect to solve the CAS problem if you do not expand what planes can do much further.
The CAS problem, in my opinion, stems from 1) the killstreak powerup implementation of CAS and all the revenge mechanics that encourage its use in the most petty manner 2) the counters being incompetent for most of the game and 3) the total lack of non-player-tank targets for aircraft (and in some cases also tanks). CAS is “annoying but purposeless” currently.
Neither tanks nor planes are “the enemy” to be focused on. Exclusionary mode thinking of “bUt ItS gRoUnD bAtTlEs!” is the poison needing to be removed.
I stopped playing RGB quite some time ago because CAS had a disproportionate effect on the battle.
After a while I started playing some RGB, but mostly at a low tier. I can’t believe the ww II prop planes are still as quiet as Gaijin has made them, while all spaa guns have no choice but to use tracers. It’s still an unfair imbalance.
Personally I have no issue with losing the ability to earn more spawn points, but I highly doubt this would be accepted by majority of the community - they would compare it to arcade.
As for adding more objectives - sounds good. But Gaijin has shown themselves to be too lazy to develop that. They prefer to just copy-paste and add more premium vehicles - usually on the top tiers. They just don’t seem to care about anything else.
CAS feels like it has more impact than it does outside of the top tiers. Below the era of “rods from god,” CAS is “annoying purposelessness” the moment you stop looking at the fact that it revenge killed you. CAS has literally nothing else to do BUT kill you or one of your teammates. None of its other objectives exist currently.
Yup, hence why I long ago started proposing to give SPAAG short-range lead markers as compensation. 1.0-1.5km max range depending on Rangefinding skill. Tells players where and when to shoot so they stop spraying 5km out as Bat Signals asking to be strafed.
It works in Simulator quite well, and RB’s specific version could still see some adjustments as needed. My point here is to borrow the general concept - everything is in from the first second, and it is up to the players to use all the tools they are given to counter things properly. If they have all the tools to help themselves and do not use them or do not use them correctly, they only have themselves to blame. It’s how you solve all “vocal minority” problems in any game mode.
Prior to the Nuclear Thunder event I would have agreed completely with you. But it seems they are in fact capable. I am watching that with great interest, even though I am terrible with the modern systems to the point that its not worth my time trying to play it. I did try it, but was so outclassed I couldn’t have any fun. Every target was smothered by godlike IFVs cosplaying as AA and SAMs, so I couldn’t get enough SP for even one nuke. And using missiles is hit or miss against anything with flares.
Obviously, we’ve seen the true potential of SPAAGs since this topic was created with the addition of APHE to the Flakpanzer. It is domination on tracks. Only reason people don’t complain about it more is a large portion of the playerbase don’t have access to it.
As an owner of that thing, I agree with you to a point. But regarding most other SPAAGs, given they are lacking their best rounds, we really haven’t.
Also, the fact that planes in RB gain disproportionately more benefits from Mouse Aim and 3rd Person Camera than Gun SPAAG do, yet SPAAG do not have any kind of lead marker to compensate for that. The argument for giving them such is further bolstered by most Gun SPAAG having dedicated sights to range planes the game doesn’t model, and Gun SPAAG usually operating in coordinated groups to single out planes much like bomber box formations did to interceptors with their gunners.
So since SPAAG still lack their rightful short-range aim assist (a lead indicator regardless of having radar out to 1.0-1.5km depending on the Rangefinding skill), we do not know the true potential of SPAAGs in most BRs.
For example, an M42 Duster with the short-range lead marker and APDS would be terrifying for any prop even at its old BR of 6.0.
OTOMATIC is still baller, the ammo box helps keep the 12 rounds loaded. It doesnt really have any problem 1 shotting MBTs either or BMPTs, just got to hit the right spot.
