USA top tier needs a change

[Lolman345]

@ゴトランド

He listed out some of the actual good point of abram

• Listed out multiple features of the M1 series that are statistically not the best nor even close to being the best and claiming such.

@ゴトランド

say that it on par with the worst tank in the game

Ok cool, so we agree that you are running with a bad faith argument and gaslighting me given the fact that I never compared the M1 to the quote on quote “worst tank in the game” nor have I claimed that the M1 is the quote on quote “worst tank in the game”

@ゴトランド

then proceed to claim that the armour is shit

@P51ACE1943

Armor that occasionally works

@P51ACE1943

The armor in the turret is sufficient in the M1A1 and onwards for threats you can face.

@Lolman345

I have not claimed otherwise. I agree with the statement that the armor on the M1 series “Sometimes works”.

Never claimed or stated that quote. If you fee like, please replace the statement “Sometimes works” with P51ACE1943’s direct quote of “occasionally works” if you are having issues with synonyms.

@ゴトランド

that the armour is shit

Nice try though.

@ゴトランド

What else could that mean ?

I mean exactly what I type, there is no underlying meaning, belief or hidden meaning to anything I post on these forums. You seem to be trying to infer that I am making statements that buttress your failing argument.

I am not.

@ゴトランド

Just like how you unable to drag yourself on par or even better than the average player ? You don’t realize what you wrote yet you acted like you did. No wonder you don’t know how to play

Ah, good, we’ve reached the point of personal attacks, I take it you have nothing more to add?

@SwingfireOP

It sure does, and it’s incredibly toxic.

Here’s the thing. You don’t see the same “huh-duh click-bait players” about say, the fuji. Or the UE1. You just don’t. This means one of two things :

Very and I still find it funny to this day that the click bait is hailed as the exclusive reason as to why the US have had poor winrates for almost 3 years now … even though the clickbait has not even been in the game for 3 years.

The same exact thing occurred during the entire F-15E vs I debacle, people came out of the woodwork fully supporting the E having an inferior engine and that players that say that the I is somehow better preforming just need to get better. The most ironic part is that the I was also suffering from a lack of AGMs but such requests were drowned out by those stat shaming and attacking the people who wanted the I to get AGMs and the E to get the same engines as the I.

In the end, cooler heads won the day and both aircraft got the additions they needed and both Israeli players and US players left on a positive note.

As said, stat shaming is cope for a lack of an actual argument.

[ゴトランド]

@Lolman345

Listed out multiple features of the M1 series that are statistically not the best nor even close to being the best and claiming such.

It does not have to be the best to perform good or it have to be the best for US player to perform good ?

@Lolman345

Ok cool, so we agree that you are running with a bad faith argument and gaslighting me given the fact that I never compared the M1 to the quote on quote “worst tank in the game” nor have I claimed that the M1 is the quote on quote “worst tank in the game”

But Ariete is the worst tank in the game ? And you compared to it ? How hard it is to not.

@Lolman345

Never claimed or stated that quote. If you fee like, please replace the statement “Sometimes works” with P51ACE1943’s direct quote of “occasionally works” if you are having issues with synonyms.

What I was saying is from the whole convo, you failed to acknowledge that Abram have good point. It is clearly not an Ariete or an Chally. Even with the armour thing you declared it as mid then what else do the Abram have ? Also bro went as far as claiming ACE crew doesn’t matter because it is the same on all tank. When it is not , you literally trying your best there to prove Abram bad. You don’t read what you wrote yet you acted like you did

@Lolman345

Very and I still find it funny to this day that the click bait is hailed as the exclusive reason as to why the US have had poor winrates for almost 3 years now … even though the clickbait has not even been in the game for 3 years.

Same could be said for Germany , they have pretty mid WR prior to the 2A7 same can be said for USSR. While other minor nation , even counting till now , still have good WR. Why was it the case then ?

Also please no wall of text. If you hit me with another wall of text I will just stop bro , move on with it. It just a game , who care. Some cheap insult here and there , who really care bro. Just , please do not wall of text

[Lolman345]

@ゴトランド

It does not have to be the best to perform good or it have to be the best for US player to perform good ?

Nope, thats not the statement that was made nor what I was replying to.

@P51ACE1943

For me personally, the Abrams are the best MBT at top tier, and here’s why:
You have one of the fastest turret traverse speeds
Great gun handling
Gun Depression and Elevation
Good top speed
Armor that occasionally works
Good ammo
Gunsight with great base and max zoom

P51ACE1943, per his statement, believed quote

@P51ACE1943

the Abrams are the best MBT at top tier

@ゴトランド

But Ariete is the worst tank in the game ? And you compared to it ? How hard it is to not.

1. Thats your opinion
2. I compared the M1 to every top tier vehicle that has above a 20 degree traverse rate, the Ariete is one of them, it being included is strictly due to the performance of it’s horizontal and vertical drives, those are the only components being compared in that argument, the overall performance of the vehicle is irrelevant and not part of the argument.

@ゴトランド

What I was saying is from the whole convo, you failed to acknowledge that Abram have good point.

I am not arguing if the M1 is a good or bad tank, I am arguing against it statistically being

@P51ACE1943

the best MBT at top tier

Which is both statistically, in both regards to it’s equipment performance / statistics and statistically in regard to US win rates, false.

@ゴトランド

Also bro went as far as claiming ACE crew doesn’t matter because it is the same on all tank.

Once again, misrepresenting my argument for the benefit of their own argument.

@P51ACE1943

With an aced crew the Abrams excels, with a base crew it’s average, not the best or the worst.

@Lolman345

This same exact statement applies to every tank in game.

Please, I’ve love for you to argue that somehow acing a tank does not make it superior to it’s base crew configuration.

Every tank “Excels” with an ace crew compared to it’s base crew stats.

@ゴトランド

Same could be said for Germany , they have pretty mid WR prior to the 2A7 same can be said for USSR. While other minor nation , even counting till now , still have good WR. Why was it the case then ?

My dude has not looked at WR stats for what must be almost 5 years, this is hilarious. Must be some amazing selective memory forgetting the addition of the Leopard 2A5 or the legendary scourge of the BVM.

@ゴトランド

Also please no wall of text. If you hit me with another wall of text I will just stop bro , move on with it. It just a game , who care. Some cheap insult here and there , who really care bro. Just , please do not wall of text

You seem to care enough to twist my words and argue with falsehoods.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SwingfireOP

I mean, a bad players experience is going to be pretty consistent, and can tell when a tank is “bad” or “good”.

Due to their limited understanding of the game and vehicles, I believe their knowledge of something being good or bad is pretty limited and might not be realistic. This is why you can often see lower level people crying about specific weapons in CS, while higher level people don’t really see an issue with those. Your skill definitely matter when evaluating something.

@SwingfireOP

Unless w’e’re now declaring that only “good” players can have an opinion on vehicles etc in the game? Because that’s ridiculous.

Everyone can have an opinion, but demanding that all of them have the same weight behind it is simply too much.

That’s like you hire a random dude you found on the street and a professional driver to evaluate your race car on the track. It would be foolish to weigh both of those opinions the same, and not to take random’s opinion with a giant grain of salt.

Gaijin is taking everyone’s opinion by looking at their stats.

[ゴトランド]

@Lolman345

Which is both statistically, in both regards to it’s equipment performance / statistics and statistically in regard to US win rates, false.

Do you understand “to me” mean ? Do you understand it is completely ok to praise a tank and claim it to be the best because it is jack of all trade master of non ? No ? Ok then we should not talk about this anymore

@Lolman345

Once again, misrepresenting my argument for the benefit of their own argument.

No.

@Lolman345

Please, I’ve love for you to argue that somehow acing a tank does not make it superior to it’s base crew configuration.

Every tank “Excels” with an ace crew compared to it’s base crew stats.

What , no. How hard it is bro. Didn’t even mention based crew and somehow it turned into ACE crew vs based crew argument. You clearly have not played that many tank , how can you certain that all tank excel with ACE crew ? And how much impact that will make. Oh wait , you don’t. Cause you don’t bother to look into anything beside stats card and make wild claim. The different in ACE crew for a auto loader and ACE crew for human loader is night and day. The number of crew also affect that. But you don’t know that

@Lolman345

My dude has not looked at WR stats for what must be almost 5 years, this is hilarious. Must be some amazing selective memory forgetting the addition of the Leopard 2A5 or the legendary scourge of the BVM.

I did ? I did look into it a while back, there were certainly period of time where all three major have mid WR. But that just me aight , you don’t have to believe me , cause what do bro care. Bro doesn’t even play top tier

@Lolman345

You seem to care enough to twist my words and argue with falsehoods.

Sure , whatever. Just fumble the bag yourself if you want, not like that gonna relate to me in some way

[Lolman345]

@ゴトランド

Do you understand it is completely ok to praise a tank and claim it to be the best because it is jack of all trade master of non ?

Oh ok just omit all of the listed reasons after that. Making a claim requires backing of fact, especially if you list direct reasons for you claims.

That and there was never a claim made by any party beyond yourself as a jack of all trades vehicle.

I also love that you ignored my statements on your fabrication of the entire “worst tank in the game” claim made by yourself. I guess you willingly admit then that you were wrong as you chose to not respond to it.

@ゴトランド

No.

Wow what a great argument, just leaving out all of the posted context and failing to actually counter the argument being made.

@ゴトランド

Didn’t even mention based crew and somehow it turned into ACE crew vs based crew argument.

What about these quotes fails to get into your head. I don’t care what you think the argument is based off of, this is what the argument was based off of contrary to whatever reality you seek to spin.

@ゴトランド

how can you certain that all tank excel with ACE crew ? And how much impact that will make.

As already stated, per P51ACE1943’s claim, all vehicles compared to their base crew, aced crews for all vehicles "excel. I am disappointed that you fail to understand that upgrading your crew, regardless of the vehicle, makes it superior.

@ゴトランド

he different in ACE crew for a auto loader and ACE crew for human loader is night and day.

I regret to inform you that autoloaders have ACEd stats by default outside of naval vessels.

@ゴトランド

I did ? I did look into it a while back, there were certainly period of time where all three major have mid WR. But that just me aight , you don’t have to believe me , cause what do bro care. Bro doesn’t even play top tier

Another blatant lie given stats from March of 2019 no longer exist and cant be found within the data project or other repositories.

I can give you the stats for the Leopard 2A6 shortly after it’s introduction and, oh my, look at that, the Leopard 2A6 carried Germany’s WR all the way up to 61% from low 50%s, curious that.

@ゴトランド

Sure , whatever. Just fumble the bag yourself if you want, not like that gonna relate to me in some way

I have no desire to “relate” to you, especially given you choose to lie and gaslight people instead of having actual, productive arguments.

[ゴトランド]

Yeah wall of text and cherry picking reading , I aint reading alldat. Sorry because that happened or happy for you. Maybe play the game in the region you were trying to talk about before talking next time maybe ? Instead of “Muh paper said Abram le bad so it is le bad”. Maybe ? No ? Ok fine , whatever lol man. Good for you !

[Lolman345]

@ゴトランド

cherry picking reading

Oh thats some rich projection.

@ゴトランド

Maybe play the game in the region you were trying to talk about before talking next time maybe ? Instead of “Muh paper said Abram le bad so it is le bad”.

One last fabrication before you head off, I am not surprised. A fantastic omission of guilt on your part. I am glad that you finally admit that your arguments were baseless and created in bad faith.

I will be here if you can actually produce a competent argument, good day.

[ゴトランド]

@Lolman345

One last fabrication before you head off, I am not surprised. A fantastic omission of guilt on your part. I am glad that you finally admit that your arguments were baseless and created in bad faith.

Does not play any of the tank he talk about
Does not play the rank 7-8 he talk about
Own barely of the tank he talk about
Play one nation

“One last fabrication”
Surely , the person who actually play the thing and be actually average with it doesn’t know about it as good as you since you

@Lolman345

statistically, in both regards to it’s equipment performance / statistics and statistically

Know about it , surely your fellow US main have no hand in contributing in said win rate being bad. Surely , now let look at how many game Lolman345 have on top tier , especially the rank and br where he talking about.

[Lolman345]

@ゴトランド

Does not play any of the tank he talk about
Does not play the rank 7-8 he talk about
Own barely of the tank he talk about
Play one nation

I’m not sure how this changes the in game stats of any of the vehicles that I spoke to. Said stats are freely available both in game and within the datamine github and having / playing a vehicle is not required to access either.

@ゴトランド

“One last fabrication”
Surely , the person who actually play the thing and be actually average with it doesn’t know about it as good as you since you

As far as I am aware, I don’t recall ever stating the M1 series was bad as your statement here insinuates -

@ゴトランド

Instead of “Muh paper said Abram le bad so it is le bad”

Thus, it is a fabrication.

@ゴトランド

Know about it , surely your fellow US main have no hand in contributing in said win rate being bad.

I don’t recall P51ACE1943 stating his total number of games played or his tank stats outside of the M1A1 and I frankly do not have any interest in probing into such. Statshaming is irrelevant to technical and statistical discussions of vehicles as player ability has no involvement in hardcoded vehicle ability.

@ゴトランド

now let look at how many game Lolman345 have on top tier

You already have access to my profile as you proved by pulling up my stats earlier, feel free to count for yourself.

@ゴトランド

especially the rank and br where he talking about.

Hmmm, last I checked I think the M1A1 was on that image you posted, which just so happened to be the exact tank he speaks to having good performance in. Such still has no bearing on technical and statistical discussions regardless, but such is there if you have an interest in it.

[SwingfireOP]

Fuji is part of Japan so an average player there might be better than what you find among big three

I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest any nations players are more skilled than any other.

According to StatShark, T-80UK + E1 have ~50m games played in total, while 11.7 - 12.0 TT tanks such as BVM + 80U + B3 + 90M have ~120m games played in total.
So, around 30% of total games belong to wallet warrior vehicles.

As for the US, Click-Bait + AIM have ~52m games played in total, while 11.7 - 12.00 TT tanks such as M1A2 + SEP + HC + SEPv2 have ~47m games played in total.
So, around 53% of total games belong to wallet warrior vehicles.

Are you accounting for the length of time those vehicles have been in the game?

That difference is surely noticeable and all of this implies US teams will have much more wallet warrior deadweight ruining their games and dragging the stats down.

Tbh, that’s not what I see. I see far more fuji’s in game that click-baits, but that’s purely annecdotal ofc.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SwingfireOP

Now, the second one is implying that a different set of people choose to play the US and I just don’t believe that.

Fuji is part of Japan so an average player there might be better than what you find among big three, so I’ll only look at US and RU here. Wallet warriors of all three major nations should be equally bad, so it comes down to who has more of them and what % they occupy relative to all players playing said nation.

According to StatShark, T-80UK + E1 have ~50m games played in total, while 11.7 - 12.0 TT tanks such as BVM + 80U + B3 + 90M have ~120m games played in total.
So, around 30% of total games belong to wallet warrior vehicles.

As for the US, Click-Bait + AIM have ~52m games played in total, while 11.7 - 12.00 TT tanks such as M1A2 + SEP + HC + SEPv2 have ~47m games played in total.
So, around 53% of total games belong to wallet warrior vehicles.

That difference is surely noticeable and all of this implies US teams will have much more wallet warrior deadweight ruining their games and dragging the stats down.

[Lolman345]

@MotorolaCRO

That difference is surely noticeable and all of this implies US teams will have much more wallet warrior deadweight ruining their games and dragging the stats down.

Problem is that such would apply to Germany too per statshark but such is not the case.

2A4M - 10261591
2 PL - 30032003
~ 40 million games

2A7V 15958266
PSO 13539263
2A6 29150430
2A5 32695346
~ 89 million games

So 44% ish of German games belong to wallet warrior vehicles, yet, Germany sits right next to Russia in WR at 52%.

The US only has 9% more wallet warrior vehicles per this over Germany but a 12% WR deficit.

It would make sense between Russia and the US, but it does not between the US and Germany.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Lolman345

The US only has 9% more wallet warrior vehicles per this over Germany but a 12% WR deficit.

It would make sense between Russia and the US, but it does not between the US and Germany.

That difference of 3% is honestly not that big and could be explained by Germany having slightly better MM luck than US overall, while having negligibly better vehicles/players.

[Lolman345]

@MotorolaCRO

That difference of 3% is honestly not that big

The difference of what? 3% is the difference between how many more WW’s the US has vs the WR deficit. That is a very irrelevant comparison.

If such was the case then Germany makes even less sense WR wise as it has a 14% difference between Germany and Russia for under 1% of a WR change while the US, with only a 9% difference has a whopping 12% WR change.

As already stated the US has a WR of 40% currently, Germany sits at 52% and Russia 53%

The US has 53% wallet warriors, Germany 44%, and Russia 30%.

The difference between Russia and Germany is almost less than a 1% difference in WRs while having a 14% difference in wallet warriors, meanwhile the US has a 9% difference to Germany and a 23% difference to Russia.

@MotorolaCRO

explained by Germany having slightly better MM luck than US overall

These are not small percentile variances my guy, “slightly better MM luck” is very much so not a credible answer for a 12% variance.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Lolman345

The difference of what? 3% is the difference between how many more WW’s the US has vs the WR deficit. That is a very irrelevant comparison.

It’s very relevant as it’s a pretty known fact wallet warriors are deadweights that directly influence the outcome of games. It should be pretty obvious that, for any given country, if you decrease the amount of wallet warriors in that nation it’s stats will improve.

@Lolman345

These are not small percentile variances my guy, “slightly better MM luck” is very much so not a credible answer for a 12% variance.

Better MM luck + marginally better tanks and/or players + 9% less deadweight definitely looks like a credible answer for that 12% variance.

[Lolman345]

@MotorolaCRO

It’s very relevant as it’s a pretty known fact wallet warriors are deadweights that directly influence the outcome of games. It should be pretty obvious that, for any given country, if you decrease the amount of wallet warriors in that nation it’s stats will improve.

Yes I am aware, as already stated due to this Germany should be impacted similarly as hard as the US, such is not the case, it is instead very similar to Russia, a nation a vastly smaller volume of wallet warriors. If Germany was being effected at a similar rate it would have a WR closer to 48%, this is not the case.

@MotorolaCRO

Better MM luck + marginally better tanks and/or players + 9% less deadweight definitely looks like a credible answer for that 12% variance.

Still no, any value over 10% in the case of WRs like this is a massive variance. EG going from 50 to 60% WR is a titanic change and is commonly an example of a meta change, the moment it hits 20% its considered gamebreaking, just like when the BVM arrived and shot Russian WRs into the high 70%s or the legendary arrival of the STRV 122 and it’s god tier hull.

Along with that, as already stated, if this variance was to occur as specified, Germany should also have a larger difference to Russia and such is not currently true, meaning that either the MM is royally shafting the US, the M1 is very much so not what people crack it up to be, or, as so SO many people love to pin as the truth, the entirety of the US player base is universally somehow sucking the bad players out of every other nation.

Although such is ironic given every time the US suddenly spikes back up in WRs nobody says its good players returning to the US or US players ever actually doing well, its exclusively a OP something.

The US is truly schrodinger’s nation, both the worst and best players and the most OP and weakest, amazing.

[_Renzo]

Everything that you could mention as a problem with the Abrams/Clickbait you could also point out as a problem that the Type 90/Fuji has.

Yet the latter perform much better than the former.

[_Renzo]

@Lolman345

My dude has not looked at WR stats for what must be almost 5 years, this is hilarious. Must be some amazing selective memory forgetting the addition of the Leopard 2A5 or the legendary scourge of the BVM.

Germany had similar 40-50% winrates as the US in the month(s) before the Leo 2 PSO was added though.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SwingfireOP

I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest any nations players are more skilled than any other.

Well, isn’t it obvious that most new players will start with one of the big three nations ?

@SwingfireOP

Are you accounting for the length of time those vehicles have been in the game?

I mean, M1A2 has been in the game longer than BVM but it has like almost 3x less games played.
Same for HC, it’s in the game for way longer than 90M but has like 2x less games under it’s belt.

AIM and 80UK are one update apart and they have comparable number of games.
Click-Bait and E1 are two updates apart and CB has 10m+ more games.

To me this looks like US wallet warrior vehicles are much more popular relative to their TT counterparts than RU ones.

@SwingfireOP

Tbh, that’s not what I see. I see far more fuji’s in game that click-baits, but that’s purely annecdotal ofc.

CB is an update older than Fuji but has 10m+ more games, so I think it must’ve been your luck.