“ People want these nations in-game”. I think that this statement explains this discussion. I do not want to offend anybody nor any country and I do not want to dive in a political discussion but my opinion is that the request for an independent tree is mostly driven by the proud to play his own country (especially for Ukraine, given the tragic facts that we are living). This is a commendable aspiration but it has nothing to do with the game. And (forgive me) a request for another T-80 or BMP (even though modified) seems only a request to be able to drive such T-80 or BMP under a differente flag. I’m pretty new to the game, but my opinion concerning the presence of the current independent nations is that such nations contributed the most, through the whole military history, to create the vast majority of vehicles that are in the game, even if today some of these nations are no more military powers. With the exception of Israel (whose presence could be justified given its permanent military status and the creation of a well home based military production), all such current nations have been relevant, from a military point of view, since the beginning of military history (air, ground and naval). That why in my opinion this independent tree should not be in the game.
Here’s a list off all the copy paste vehicles in this tech tree:
T-34-85,
IS-2
SU-100
BMP-1P
T-54
IS-3
T-10A
ZSU-57
2S1
BMP-2
T-55A
T-55AM
T-10M
ZSU-23 x 3
Gepard 1A2
T-64B
Shturm-S
T-64BV x 4
BMP-3
Leopard 1A5
T-72M1
Strela-10
Tunguska
Leopard 2A4
T-80UD x 2
T-80BV (same as B esentailly) x 2
9K330
T-64BM (the same as B esentially) x 3
Yeah, I’m not a fool buddy, thank you, next!
And now list what isn’t copy paste, then you’ll see that the tree isn’t so bad after all
Buddy, you want me to list like 10 vehicles? No thanks, you won’t change my mind with “it’s different variants” or “it’s indigenous designs”, it’s the same bro.
There are plenty of countries or unions that can be added when looking at their content in an unbiased manner.
Ukraine is arguably one such country, because of their ridiculously good ground potential.
Aviation leaves quite a bit to be desired and there are superior options to Ukraine, but I assure you that pride often times isn’t really applicable, especially when the voter isn’t connected to the country in question.
Is Sherman Firefly copy paste?
I do not support Ukraine nor hate it, even though I live next to the country. It’s still copy paste, there’s maybe 4 or 5 actual from scratch vehicles, not some sort of BMP with a BMD hull
It is not in fact. It gets a different gun, a different and longer hull, different ammo, different reload.
Ukrainian modificationsof vehicles are often of similar scale, so why is that copy paste but Firefly isn’t?
You mean ukrainians putting soviet turrets on slightly altered soviet hulls? Yeah buddy, totally not copy paste. And that firefly remark. Compare the hull to other shermans, it’s completely different and is only 1 tank in an entire tech tree. Not the whole tech tree, next!
Soviet turrets like the locally developed KASKET or 120mm carrying turrets?
Regardless of whether the components existed beforehand, if they are put together in a configuration that hasn’t been seen before then it’s unique. This is per definition the truth.
Do Ukrainian engines, armaments, armours, transmissions and whole damn turrets mean nothing to you?
That just smells like selective bias.
And whether or not the Firefly is the only modification of a foreign vehicle in the tree (which it isn’t), what does it matter? It’s performance has been objectively and significantly altered, just like it is the case for Ukrainian vehicles.
Like it or not, Ukrainian tanks are unique because of these facts and because of the amount of these unique vehicles that can be added to Ukraine it would make for a (relatively) plausible tree.
And honestly, you don’t need to be a supporter of the tree to recognize it’s uniqueness either, but you do neither of these things.
Way to slander the engineers behind their products…
The ukrainian tech tree is not unique in anyway
With MiG-29 and Su-27 modernizations, they’re 1-off, sure, but it’s much like the numbers of the T-84. They add a lot to the aircraft, and they’re just as numerous as aircraft like the Su-25T/TM or the Russian MiG-29SMT.
That’s quite literally just a BMD.
Does that mean the VCC-80/30 is a copy/paste of the VCC-80/25? What about the Freccia / VBC?
An empty statement.
You will need to elaborate on that if you want to be considered valid.
Next :) ?
Ok so that’s 28(?). Now I need a count of all unique units
The fact that the textolite layer was replaced with an ERA layer does not mean that it has become less strong.
T-80UD with Drozd APS is literally BM Oplot 2000(Obj 478DU9) , just exported to U.S.
I’ll shut up
So now we are backtracking on previous statements?
Things are looking bleak for your argument…
Anyhow, namecalling is also quite revealing.
I am by no means a “ukraineboo”, I am simply calling out what is clearly wrong.
Yes, I do think Ukraine should be an independent tree, but I have also stated that I don’t think it is the best option to be the next independent tree. In fact, in regards to potential trees that I look positively towards this would be on the lower end.