Type 90-1 HEAT Rocket / Fire Snake 90A Underperforming?

[MrPygmyWhale]

The Type 90-1 HEAT Rocket is one of the mainstay Chinese rocket pods for fixed wing (and some early rotary) aircraft. However, when it was first added, the Type 90-1 stats seemingly were mirrored the Hydra 70, likely due to issues with finding concrete sources, thus a placeholder was made. It has been a while since they were added, thus I’m not sure if the Hydras received a .09 increase to their TNT equivalence, but this connection certainly reigns true for the Hydra 70 and the Fire Snake 90A.

The problem I intend to bring forth is this seems to be a rather weak comparison, especially with the smaller FS70 outperforming the 90mm missile in penetration and TNT equivalency. The Type 90-1 is certainly a shorter rocket in comparison to other rockets of a similar diameter. However, this appears to be from a shorter motor rather than a smaller warhead. The weight of the projectile is above every other finned rocket below 100 mms in diameter. One would hope that weight would be going somewhere. At its current state, the S8 rocket has higher velocity, penetration, and explosive mass despite being 10mm smaller and weighing 3.3 kg less.

I haven’t been able to find anything concrete in terms of an actual source for the true size of the warhead on the Type 90-1 or the FS-90A. However, I do believe it is fair to say that they are underperforming. Cursory searches have brought this number up, “1.3 kg TH50-50 high-explosive warhead”, for the FS-90A. While I can’t say it is fully truthful, I still believe it paints a better picture than what we have in game. These rocket systems have been ignored since their introduction. The J-11B, for example, should be carrying HF-20 pods with 16 Type-90-1 (Same pod that we see with the FS90A on the JF-17) instead of the 20 S8 rocket pod.

While I may be out of my depth due to a lack of substantial sources, I feel it is worth the discussion to at least bring some light to these rockets that are everywhere in the Chinese Air Tree. Especially if anyone would be able to gather a reasonable source for a bug report, proper. Otherwise, I’ll happily be proven wrong if they are actually being represented well. I just feel they are lacking for a 90mm rocket. Especially one that is still in use today, having seen upgrades in the form of the FS-90A. Would love to hear peoples thoughts.

[pegabug]

Yes it’s under-performing. Just like most Chinese equipment, they grab half-baked ‘sekret’ sources and slap whatever value on it. Unfortunately, there just really isn’t any information anyone can show the devs to get it buffed, the source requirements just isn’t there. FS90A == BRM1, if it helps in finding information. FS70A == GR5

These are the only things I could find:

[Armen_Lozone]

wait so Firesnake 90 can ALSO be carried by the Z-10ME?
but why didnt they give us that too

[pegabug]

FS90A is unclear if it can be carried by the Z-10/Z-10ME. A logical assumption is yes since Norinco adverts it as helicopter capable, but we do not see any Chinese rocket pods for this rocket. For reference this the only rocket pod I could find for it, which is a Russian design:

BRM1/FS90A

We know the current in game 70mm pods are the HF-27A pods, which are in fact a 70mm rocket pod.

HF-27A

The new rocket pods are for 70mm rockets, the 7 launcher for the FS70A/GR5 and the 19 launcher is for the FS70 and FS70B (burst).

FS70A/FS70B

All that said, the FS70A and FS70 likely have similar penetration values with the exception that the FS70A has a much larger range and is guided (likely GPS or similar based off the lack of a laser seeker).

[MrPygmyWhale]

I’ve seen some of the similar. It certainly is a bit upsetting that the implementation is unlikely to change any time soon. I fear that following the implementation of the FS70As, any calls for changes to the FS90A and Type 90-1 will just result in a nerf to the 70mm rocket. Though that might equally be pessimistic. Maybe it’s worth just making the argument based on logic. Not sure. Appreciate the sources though.

[MrPygmyWhale]

I return after some heavy digging through various photos and questionable Chinese websites with some mild additional information. To begin, one of the most amusing things I’ve learned is that Chinese media outlets seem to struggle just as much to identify their own hardware as we do in the west. I just find that amusing.

Regardless, for future reference, here’s a small guide to assist:
I won’t go into the specific names of the various pods, just because it’s confusing enough. Additionally, keep in mind that warhead weight does not equal explosive mass.

• The Type 57-1/2

Spoiler

The Type 57-1/2 rocket, based on what I’ve found, is a domestic reproduction (with some notable modifications) of the soviet S5 rocket. While information is sparse, it would seem that the Type 57-1 is a straight reproduction of the S5 while the Type 57-2 attempts to improve on the design. Rather than the eight fins of an S5 rocket, these have 6. The Type 57-2 is also notably shorter than the S5. I can’t say I know where these news outlets are getting their sources, but they all have seemingly decided that the Type 57-2 has the following stats: The 0.82-meter-long rocket features a six-blade folding stabilizer tail and a 0.23-meter wingspan. It weighs 3.86-3.97 kilograms, carries a 1.38-kilogram warhead, and has a maximum speed of Mach 2.. They also mention a proximity fuse and the ability to engage air targets. If you’re curious, the ‘sources’ will be at the bottom.

Finding pictures of the actual rocket is a bit of a pain (the ones above are missing the correct fins). However, some additional photos are included below. These rockets seem to have fallen out of favor, being replaced by the 70mm and 90mm rocket.

Spoiler

Finally, both of these rockets (The Type 57-1 and Type 57-2) have unused models in War Thunder. Notably the Type 57-2 has the incorrect fins, retaining 8 instead of the 6.

Spoiler

• The FS70 70mm Rocket

Spoiler

I believe we are familiar with these rockets at this point. Thus I will keep it brief. These are a domestically produced rocket meant to be comparable to the American Hydra 70. Rather than fold out fins like on the Type 57-1/2 and Type 90-1, these use wrap-around fins. As my focus was mainly the Type-90-1, I don’t have stats for these. Also they’re fairly well represented in War Thunder already. Nevertheless, the 7 round tube is often mistaken for a 90mm rocket pod. A notable distinction (other than the differences of the rockets) is the FS70 loads from the front, while the Type 90-1 pods load from the rear.
Also the 19 round pod on the Z10 can be confused for the 18 round 57mm pod we have in game. Easiest distinction other than size is the 19 round 70mm pod has a hole in the middle while the 18 round 57mm pod does not. I hope we can get the 19 launcher in game at one point. Now, a few more photos.

Spoiler

• The Type 90-1

Spoiler

The Type 90-1 Rocket is a domestically produced 90mm rocket system that is still in service today. Hypothetically at least. This missile is fairly old and, outside of guided upgrades, there is little information on potential improvements to the rocket itself. A couple of the websites I looked at lists the Type-90-1/2/3, suggesting two additional variants. A photo from a museum also displays the 90mm C and D rocket (likely different warheads). These are important distinctions that I have little information on.

Spoiler

Nevertheless, these rockets are a mainstay in Chinese aviation and the original topic of this post. As mentioned above, I believe they are currently underperforming, as they currently list an explosive mass of 0.86 kg and the ability to penetrate 283mm of armor. At the very least, assuming we can find credible sources, the Type-90-3 deserves to be represented on the Rank 8 aircraft.

Across multiple websites, the 90mm rocket is listed with the following statistics:
“1.25 meters long, featuring a four-fin folding stabilizer and a four-nozzle solid rocket motor, weigh 14.6-17.1 kilograms (kg). They have a maximum speed of Mach 2 and can engage targets at 7,000 meters. They use warheads with general-purpose explosive, armor-piercing, and incendiary designations, weighing 4.8-5.6 kg (kg).”
What is their source?

However, one website notes something interesting. “It weighs 14.6 kg (90-1/2) and 17.1 kg (90-3)… The warhead of the 90-1/2 aerial rocket weighs 4.8 kg, and the warhead of the 90-3 aerial rocket weighs 5.6 kg; both use the HF7 7-tube rocket launcher.” Now, this same website displays the HF-27A pod as HF-7D, a 90mm pod, then displays the same pod in the 70mm section. So, take this all with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, we can infer a few things. Given we know the FS90A guided missile is 16.8 kg (given the promotional picture), the Type 90-3 would be heavier than its guided counterpart, suggesting that the FS90A is based on the 90-2 rather than the 90-3.

For the warhead weight, a Hydra 70 M247 has a warhead weight of 4.0 kg. In game, it lists an explosive mass of 0.91.
A SNEB has an approximate warhead weight of 3 kg. In game we have an explosive mass of 0.34 kg (I looked at another source that put it at 0.2985 kg.)
A S8KO has a warhead weight of 3.6 kg. In game, it lists an explosive mass of 1.1 kg.
Using the warhead weight we found for the Type 90-1/2 (4.8 kg) with the explosive mass in game, and including the hypothetical 1.3 kg explosive mass for the Type 90-1, we get this chart.

Keep in mind this is a gross oversimplification to what makes up a warhead; size constraints with the fuse, potency of the HEAT charge, etc. etc. However, adding a couple more rockets (some of which aren’t HEAT mind you), we get a logarithmic curve that looks like this. ( log(x-2))*5.3 )

Now, it’s not a perfect line as this isn’t a perfect comparison. Especially as larger rockets seemingly skew our data. Regardless, the point is, the Type 90-1 is a notable outlier in game. Under the hypothetical of 1.3 kg of explosive mass, it fits far better on this chart. This is by no means, proof that Gaijin is wrong. This is merely a demonstration of my argument of the disparity between the Type 90-1 and other FFARs.

Anyways here are a few more pictures of the rocket to end off.

On the ground

Spoiler

Firing

Spoiler

Firing GIF

Spoiler

Finally, the actual HEAT warhead for the Type 90-1 is hiding in the files. It’s pointier.

Spoiler

For those who are curious, here are the websites that I ended up looking at. Finding legitimate sources is a pain. Like I said, take everything here with a grain of salt. But if you’re curious, here ya go.

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/707002583

航空火箭彈:中國情況,武器進展,缺陷,_中文百科全書

https://kknews.cc/zh-my/military/gvqmrz9.amp

火箭弹告别洗地，也玩激光制导，讲讲BRM-1型精确制导90mm火箭弹-腾讯新闻

[MrPygmyWhale]

My chart totally forgot about the smaller rockets. And gave a bit more weight to my argument than I think is justified. This chart is a little better. I disregarded the logarithm needed to incorporate larger missiles. Like I said, this is still a bit skewed. The HEAT performance would add another layer, but I don’t currently have the time.