Tog II What exactly have they modelled?

[nathanclawfish]

Hi guys, I have had a gander at the model for the tog II in line with the new bug report, and i am not exactly sure what they have modelled, but whatever it is it is fictional in regards to what the designers had planned and is instead a weird Frankenstein of multiple designs and revisions made during her design process. See photo below:

I am trying to work out what they have modelled, as i have heard both the definitive design, along with one of the proposed designs, and the vehicle presented is neither such things, as firstly the hull howitzer was rejected from the design by late 1941, due to the performance of the Churchill Oke, as it was found that hull mounted howitzers were both limited in traverse and impractical for their intended role, hence why all CS tanks had them turret mounted from 1940 onwards, and would have instead been replaced by a BESA machine gun. The same could be said for the side sponsons, as this relic of the previous design was also discarded around the same time when the 1942 revision came around, which included the 94mm cannon present in the prototype that is extant today. The turret mounted on the existing TOG is also simply a weight mockup of the planned turret, which would have been low profile, instead of the veritable barn that exists today, which was far from the designers actual intents as you will see below with the following photographs of the design evolution of the TOG 2.

The first design mock-up for the TOG 2, possessed a turret similar to the Churchill three, possessing a 57mm 6-pounder and a coaxial BESA, along with the side sponsons and the hull-mounted 3-inch howitzer.

This would soon be revised to a duel gun turret where a second howitzer would be mounted in tandem with the 6-pounder and BESA, though this would only be temporary, as a third revision would take place shortly thereafter.

This revision replaced the 3-inch gun in the hull with a Besa machinegun, and the guns in the turret would both be replaced with the 94mm taking the place of the 6 pounder and a 3 inch 20cwt gun taking the place of the 3 inch howitzer due to its ability to fire a more versatile amount of shells. At this point the side sponsons were removed from the design and movers were made to follow through with this design with a modified low-profile turret. In addition, it was at this point the decision was made to make the external armour applique, to both speed up manufacturing and ease replacement and repair for the vehicle if it were to enter service.

It was in this form that the first initial proof of concept was constructed, which replaced the sides with a more uniform layer of armour.

The final real revision to the design would be the one we have today, where they modified the turret, which exists today.

As you can see the design morphed quite a few times, but what is presented at any point of the design process is what is shown now, as it seems to be a weird hodgepodge of what was on the table, but none of it was actually mated, as well it has the mockup weighted turret, instead of the proposed low profile turret that was intended to house the two gun set-up

[SithDoesTankTat1]

they’re also given it the wrong armour - should be 114mm hull front and 76mm hull side

[da12thmonkey]

The side MG sponsons and hull howitzer are optional modifications
You can view the model ingame with this wiki link https://wiki.warthunder.com/Special:GameObjectView?object_id=uk_tog_2
Howitzer etc. will be present if you test drive it with “reference” modifications set, but the default configuration of the tank looks like this:

So it’s basically the final revision, but with the option to enhance it with features from the initial design.

[nathanclawfish]

so just call if fictional then, as what is presented was neither the definitive design, or even a combination that was put forward, its a hodge podge of design concepts that were discarded before the proof of concept was even constructed.

[Flame2512]

The TOG II in it’s default form is an accurate reorientation of what the prototype ended up like at the time of cancelation. The devs have just added the option to attach the mocked up sponsons and hull howitzer for those who want to. That configuration is fictional in so much as the sponsons and howitzer were not fitted at the same time as the final turret, but presumably Gaijin just thought it was a fun little addition (based in reality) to what was meant to be a fun tank.

[nathanclawfish]

Then why did they previously remove things like the Flakpanzer Coelian, for just being a mock up. The fact of the matter is what is being presented here is not historical, even if they are trying to present it as such, as the togs development is pretty well documented when brit ww2 prototypes are concerned.

by the time of the 94mm as previously said there was no intentions for a hull gun or the side sponsons, so their dev blog is simply false to put it bluntly

[da12thmonkey]

@nathanclawfish

by the time of the 94mm as previously said there was no intentions for a hull gun or the side sponsons

But the ports for installing them still remained on the vehicle and simply had removable plugs put in their place. i.e. the vehicle was still fitted for, but not with.

[jd_hog77]

The Coelian got only as far as a wooden mock up while Tog II was built.

[nathanclawfish]

those were the fittings where retained for the besa, if you look at the internal the turret basket soaks the majority of the space. ( I pitty the driver) but just looking at it that is not even close to ergonomically working as its LHD

[nathanclawfish]

panther hull with a wooden turret, its on par exactly with what is presented, seeing as with the larger weight turret the 3 inch doesn’t even fit in the hull, and the sponsons never made it past wood

[MJPIA]

My headcanon for the optional configuration is this is a landship and therefore they modeled it under naval rules for additions to the game which the second configuration would fall under.

[TT33a]

@da12thmonkey

But the ports for installing them still remained on the vehicle and simply had removable plugs put in their place

Ok, so gaijin, where is the flamethrower for the Maus then? Or how about the Maus (and Tiger II) missing the MG 151 cannon?:

[SinisterIsRandom]

Mate the Coelian was a wooden turret, the guns were on the floor. No turret was built. The TOG II however was, and is in more of a complete state compared to that of the Coelian.

Another thing the A30 Challenger turret that was used for the TOG II worked fine.(I retract this statement, it is a different turret that’s older but looks similar) Mind you the one that is on display did work under its power. The Howitzer and sponsors were likely already in production for a complete representation when it was canceled, for the smaller cannon it doesn’t take one and one to mount one, hell the mounting was probably inside of it.

Meaning that the thing is more finished than the wooden turret Coelian.

[Texasred001]

its up to 101mm on front now instead of the 76, lets hope they actually give it the right armor

[TyTheGuy27]

flame maus would be pretty sick ngl. 15th anniversary vehicle???

[nathanclawfish]

The a30 turret was never used on the tog, they just look superficially similar, which is a common theme with british tanks of the time, like the cromwell 2, and the matilda with the apparant crusader turret. The turret on the tank is the weighted turret, which was intended to represent the possible weight of the two gun completed low profile turret, but that was never produced. using the wot models for the same angle you can clearly see they are different turrets:

The howitzer fittings were never placed on the tog 2, as seen in a previous picture of the interiour, as they simply didnt fit, and its its pure conjecture to say the sponsons were being produced when the idea for them was cancelled in late 41, before the proof of concept was even finished.

[nathanclawfish]

That is a good point, i have heard more people asking from that, then there are likely people who are aware the first TOG 2 wooden mockup had sponsons

[Jarms]

They’ve made a Frankenstein’s monster just like the Panther 2.

[nathanclawfish]

Yup, they have changed the name in the files for the mod to Great War Pattern, which in British military terminology means it was developed for or was the standard issue during WW1 XD

[Flame2512]

@nathanclawfish

The a30 turret was never used on the tog, they just look superficially similar

It’s worth noting that wasn’t a coincidence. The same company which made the TOG II’s turret was contracted to make the A30 Challenger turret, and to save time they just modified the design of the existing TOG turret.

As a result the first prototype for the Challenger actually used a largely unmodified TOG turret design. So amusingly enough you could say the Challenger used the TOG’s turret, not the other way around.