And then there we have ot.
Gsjin likely would add that with a very low priority and likely wait ubtil strv123b exist.
U are aware of the release time of mbts
A and B variant aint happening any time soon together
The B is just a 2A8 and the 123 A is their upgraded domestic 122 which DELIVERS in 2026, they don’t have to be added together because they don’t enter service at the same time.
Again u are aware hiw slowly gajin adds new ground stuff. And sweden has the best mbt line up.
Its just not a priority either. They likely just gonna qait until sweden receives their 2a8s.
And even then 2a8s im netween versions have differnces like already shown in this news
This is so cool ngl.
thats not happening, its already a thing ingame
type 10 is already in the game
nice some variety at least
Bruh what kind of source is this lol? Nexter themselves state a 15% increase in performance which would put it at 662mm 12mm more than DM53 big whoop.
A tank thats actually being built in big numbers and is apparently good enough to already attract contracts and export interest? Compared to some other european MBTs that no ones interested in?
What should i read again lol? Your source is literally based on a dude saying: “My personal estimation is that it features 775mm long WHA penetrator and when it’s shot from French L/52 gun, it has 1720m/s muzzle velocity.” Thats not a source.
Your claim about the tank being israeli has already been debunked.
And you can gush about autoloaders and ERA (lol) as much as you want but neither the K2 nor the Leclerc produce anywhere near the same interest as the 2A8 does.
Check your sources my guy. DM83 is already designed and got its qualification contract in septmeber 2024.
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its still just some dude on a no name website rambling about what he thinks its values are. Thats not source material lol
And KNDS, MTU, Renk etc are israeli?
Lol ofc not, because its new and not disclosed but theres contracts and Rheinmetall press releases about it. You saying its far from being designed is just insanely wrong.
I always ok with being wrong, i just dont accept random sources with 0 credibility.
So one part makes the Tank essentially Israeli? Awesome so i guess every tank using some form of the RH120 is german now.
Are you dense? There is proof that its in qualification so your statement
is wrong. Do we have official numbers for it? Ofc not.
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Leclerc in the 90s was probably one if not the best tank in the western world. There are however several factors that explain the reason it sold so poorly, the main one being that it arrived just after the Leopard 2 sold to basically every country in existence that might have wanted a top of the line western tank. One other factor was that it was insanely expensive (also explains why development of the tank basically stalled and production was halted in the 2000s for the “peace dividends”) while not bringing that much capability compared to what western tanks would face at the time (mostly export Russian tanks which, well, have the benefit of existing).
I believe Shard should be somewhat better than DM53, if fired from similar cannons tho. That is if the 15% improvement is compared to the OFL 120 F1 - this can be discussed (see my paragraph below)
Compared to late 2020s tanks, I agree. Compared to 90s stuff, it was pretty impressive (fun fact, half of the price of the tank was just for the electronics)
Few things here. There have been 2 values thrown around. 15% and 20%. To me, looks like 2 variants have been proposed. It appears that it’s the Mk1 that is due to enter service tho.
The 660mm pen also comes from 2 hypothesis :
- Nexter claim 15% more compared to the “latest AFSDS”. Do they mean Nexter built APFSDS, KNDS built APFSDS (which, iirc, includes DM53), or their estimate for modern APFSDS used on other vehicles. The 660mm figure is the lowball estimate if it’s compared to the OFL 120 F1 - when it should at least be compared to the F2, if not potentially from KNDS group values.
- This 660mm value is only an in game value. It’s now a known fact that most if not all shell underperforming, and often by quite different degrees from the few known informations.
All in all, the 660mm value and comparaison from to the DM53 is only applicable to the in game performance of the SHARD compared to the OFL 120 F1 in game on the L52 to the DM53 fired by the L55. And honestly informations on the SHARD are way to fuzzy to be able to clearly state what its capabilities are. People are free to think it must be the worst possible value (660mm), or an higher value - but in this case this would not be applicable in game since there’s not enough sources.
You can’t just make jabs at the Leclerc being a commercial failure without considering that the Leclerc simply stopped production almost 20 years ago. Nexter just can’t compete when the Leopard 2 has been keeping its production. Case in point, the Leclerc Evolution (just like the XLR) is only proposed to current customers of the Leclerc ie France, UAE and maybeeee Jordan. Right now Germany, the US and South Korea are the only ones to produce at scale, hence why most of the western orders are to those countries. France seemingly forgot that they used produce tanks in large numbers since the end of the Cold War (because they didn’t’t fear a ground invasion and wheeled vehicles are better to steamroll some African country), and decided to focus it’s industrial ability in other sectors. Case in point, the military aeronautical sector of France is far bigger than Germany’s
Even aside from density being incorrect (and AFAIK, it’s the case for many top tier rounds, since they use a rather standard value found on older rods), LO fromula just kinda sucks for high performance rounds, and it’s not even mentioning the anti era tips and other tech integrated on the latest models.
We’ve seen in Ukraine that insensitive ammo aren’t the be all and end all. There’s a picture of a challenger with the back of the turret absolutely annihilated. The latest German (and French) ammo claim to be insensitive as well, but looking at a French paper on insensitive ammo, they claim it highly depends on the type of shock they receive. For example, they claim that their compound does still explode when hit by a HEAT jet, while it survives being hit by AFSDS, regular HE and fire. I expect it to be the same for other countries. And drones usually use RPG HEAT warheads against vehicles.
@dotSHINI obviously I am not making an apology of the Leclerc. It was a strong vehicle in the 90s/early 2000s, but the budgetary cuts basically halted any major improvement of the vehicle. The XLR aims to do catch up at most. I am waiting to see if something like the Leclerc Evolution could come to life because this is the vehicle that could be considered a true upgrade. Thales is preparing their APS which aims to be very nasty, the cannon is a true upgrade other the aging L52 (with option for the 120mm or 140mm caliber with semi telescopic ammo), somewhat decent anti drone capabilities with the 30mm roof mounted turret that can equip AHED/VT type shells, and apparently much better armor (but this is as usual basically impossible to judge, just like the Leclerc base armor…)
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Well we aremt even talking war thunder specific anytjing rihht now
Yep, I was not comparing to the DM83, only the 53 (and 73 by extension). As I said, the L52 is just less powerful than the L55 in the achievable chamber pressure. Hence why the 140mm for the Leclerc Evo would be an actual upgrade. We could expect anywhere from 800 to more than 1000mm of pen (using the LO formula) (lowball and "hig"ball approximation of the round with speed and length considered with pretty big variability)
That’s what is claimed by the UK mains, and on this point I believe them. They just tend to overhype insensitive ammunition a bit too much (but so have some German mains tbf)
I would wager the Leclerc evolution would be somewhat better than the 2A8 in modern warfare, but probably would arrive to late either way yeah. KNDS claimed that they could upgrade all French tanks by 2035 iirc, when the MGCS is due to arrive in like 2040.
I think it’s going to be the AMX30 situation all over again. France refused the proposed stabiliser upgrades to the AMX30s because the Leclerc was due to arrive 5-10 years later when GIAT originally proposed the AMX30C upgrade iirc.
On the other hand, the ground stuff is not all that bad, they do produce very good wheeled vehicles, the EBRC is a very fine vehicle, just not a breakthrough vehicle…
I don’t think there has been any direct quotes on that. It was kinda assumed from the fact that Nexter has produced multiple turret prototypes (ie, Leclerc EVO, the different EMBTs) - and the Leclerc eco was basically the Leclerc hull but refined (so not new) and all the EMBT proposed leopard derivates chassis. If we were to make a generality on that, we could claim that KMW doesn’t really produces turrets since only the leopard 2ARC (or whatever its name was) actually uses a new turret design instead of the add more armor block"trend seen on the leopard from the 2A4 to the 2A8
However, it is true that France currently doesn’t produce tank class engines anymore, since the company that built the Leclerc engine was sold to Wassila which is I believe a nordic company. Tho tbf their wheeled vehicles engines are also Volvo derivatives produced through Renault Truck as well, so it seems to apply to most of their ground forces and it doesn’t prevent them from building them.
KNDS claim they can be able to retrofit the current Leclerc chassis for the Eco (typo from Evo but I have to say this autocorrect is actually funny so ill keep it that way). The EMBT also uses a proposed leopard deviated hull.
They are not bought because France aims to pay as little as possible until the MGCS comes out. Politics and economics is the main issue as usual.
Wounder how many more years these decade old hulls might be in service. Even with upgrades and alot maintenance… There is probably one point where these just fall apart.
These new Leopards are build from the scratch. Newly made tanks.
France has produced a decent number of vehicles. More than half of them were put out of service and put in long term storage. Currently they are using those out of service vehicles to change parts on in service vehicles when they have to be replaced. Overall, the Leclerc finished production in around 2008, so event the “newer” hull are almost 20 years old. Tho it needs to be mentioned that the armor is highly modular and probably is still being produced and tank armor is being replaced with new components as they age (so the age"would be more about the structure, engine and transmission AFAIK, but not is known if those two, engine and transmission, are still produced in limited numbers). Still won’t beat a brand new hull tho, that is true.
Anyway, I saw that comment got cleaned up, so I’ll stop talking about the Leclerc and let this thread return to what it should be
Chinese Armata, thanks
Copy and Paste; fun
Yeah and can launch a loitering drone munition…China have lost the plot a little with this one