Oh god yes please
Nice to see you here! I liked your suggestion very much on the old forum.
Its nice that you added the T-55A SZRP and the T-72 Currus, also to see the GAZ-66 IGLA.
Looks nice, but I’d like Czechoslovakia to be a separate tech tree. They had the biggest industry and experience in making military stuff of these nations.
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Understandable, but let me ask you… You are missing vehicles for them, or what you dont like about this concept?
I think that Czechoslovakia made more than enough tanks and aircraft to be a separate tech tree. They made many modern tanks and airplanes before WWII, as well as some prototypes during WWII. They also produced some successful designs after the war. When it comes to more recent times, they get the advantage of getting both Czech and Slovakian designs.
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I really like Czechoslovakia but sadly they would suffer at top rank as well as have gaps throughout the tree. I’ve tried to make an independent tree already. There TD line for example, would largely consist of artillery that, without a purpose other than direct fire, wouldn’t do much beyond like 7.0-7.3.
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Rank I-II is more than enough, but in higher ranks sometimes its just barely enough. I mean, 2-4 unique (or not exact copy paste) vehicles per rank sometimes. Its fine for a new tree, but without any new addition in the future indenepndent CzSlo. will be forgotten. And its not like China, they at least have hordes of high BR MBTs, here we can speak about mostly BVP variants. Some MBTs also, but mainly same BR and not many differences, in about the same BR, and not the high end of it… (T-72M1M, M2E, M2, M3CZ, M4CZ, Scarab - all having about the same max penetration, same type of ERA, etc.)
Thats the very same reason why indenepndent Hungary isnt in game with its very good rank I-III lines. They spend equal money to model an interesting high end MBT, which took months to research (and worth the premium time or vehicle to buy, even if there are a lot of copy pastes in front of them), and to model a 2.7 medium tank, which is like a week of research for an average player.
Visegrád Group tree however is full of interesting stuff, has only some minor gaps that can be filled up with low amount of copy pastes and wont be forgotten, there is a lot to add, both ground and air.
These nations also have the population, so even if the chinese or american players wont be interested, there will be enough players to play this tree to be profitable. It worths the money to spend on for Gaijin, unlike many of the minor nation suggestions.
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Speaking of Hungary:
They got there new Leopards 🤙
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That camouflage looks nice
Yeah, they would be some gaps at top tier. But either making this Visegrad TT. Or make Czechoslovakia + Poland TT. Leave Hungary to Italy and give us Ukraine as a sub TT
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V4 is V4… One of the four is Hungary. Moreover, Hungary has more in common with Czechoslovakia (T-21/Turán/Zrínyi series, FUG/OT-65, etc) than Ukraine has with Poland for example.
Gaps in top tier exist, but Poland adds so much to Czechoslovakia there that it actually turns out to be interesting and fully functional. ZRN-01 Daisy, BWP-2000 and Rosomaks with 105/120 mm guns for examples.
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You did very great job making this tech tree. I think this is the best way to implement these nations match each other making good tree.
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Why do you think so exactly? Sure, it would lack good toptier MBT if it was added now, BUT, in the near future, both Czechia and Slovakia are planning on replacing their MBTs. Czechia is actually currently in talks with Germany about purchase of over 70 Leopard 2A8s (and the purchase is more than likely, as Czech Republic already operates Leopard 2A4). IFVs wouldnt be a problem either, with both Czechia and Slovakia purchasing CV90 Mk.IV (Czech with 30mm and Slovak with 35mm cannons), and they also have wheeled IFV options, for example Pandur II (which can even be equipped with domestic active protection system) or Slovak Patria. I could see a problem with toptier SPAA, as the only viable option is OSA AKM with just 6 missiles (unless they will add mechanic that will make SPYDER useable in-game, as it needs separate radar vehicle), but the same goes for Visegrad tree (but its still better than in case of Japan tbh). Air would also have preety much no problems. MiG-29AS and L-159 are more than good enough for current toptier, and, with future options for addition being JAS-39C Gripen, F-16V Viper and probably even F-35, Czechoslovak techtree wouldnt suffer in air either. Helicopter tree would end with AH-1Z Viper, which sure, isnt the best helicopter in the entire game, but its still preety great (There are even rumours on Czech republic planning to equip their Vipers with Spike ATGMs, which would honestly be preety neat).
Largest BR gap i was able to create was 2.0 (between Cromwell IV and Challanger), otherwise there are few 1.0 gaps. Each BR indeed wouldnt have a perfect lineup, but when you consider that Czecoslovakia is a minor nation, it isnt even that bad. When we look at in-game nations, some even dont have vehicles at certain rank in their lineups. Both Great Britain and Japan have 3.0 gaps, Sweden 3.7 and France even has a 4.0 BR gap!
It indeed is true that Czechoslovak techtree has quite a lot of potential artilerry pieces that can be added. I personally think those SPGs would make the tree more unique, but i also doubt they would add all of them. 5 or 6 such vehicles would be more than enough (DANA, ZUZANA 2000, ZUZANA 2, DITA, maybe ONDAVA as a premium). 152mm armed ones can fire HEAT shells (with supposedly over 400mm of penetration), which would make them viable against all kinds of tanks, including heavy ones. For the 155mm armed zuzana, even APFSDS was supposedly being developed, but i couldnt find any specific info about that so that could be a lie.
As for the other vehicles tha would come after those artilerry pieces, you can have the BTR-50PK VOLANT (armed with 8 ready to fire malyutkas), Aligator 4x4 with Konkurs missiles, Pandur II FSV, Zetor Gerlach with RS6 turret (cannon from Apache + Javelin ATGMs), Elbit Sabrah Pandur II, 9P133, 9P148, IVECO LMV SMV 01, and if you we go into projects that didnt make it past a mockup then you can even add the ZUBR PSP with either TOW missiles or 105mm cannon and Zetor Wolfdog 120mm. You could also add Zetor Gerlach armed with 50cal and Javelins or Aligator with Mini-Samson turret (50cal + Spike missiles), as they wouldnt really fit anywhere else into the tree and are armed with ATGMs.
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Imma write this semi quickly because it would take a lot of time for me to go through each vehicle so this won’t be pretty so I apologize in advance. Let’s take this post from PikPikker (who for the record does make solid trees):
- This image lacks the vehicles like the Leopards due to its age.
- I don’t have my old tree I made so I’m using this as a placeholder. This tree isn’t going to offer significant differences from a modern version.
Issues/notes:
- The tank destroyer line has several holes in it from BR 1.0 to 5.7. Beyond this it relies on large artillery pieces that (some) can’t rotate there turrets all the way. These artillery pieces wouldn’t be able to go beyond 7.7 because, even though they have HEAT, the un-stabilized guns, with really the only other munition useable being HE-types. Going beyond the artillery is the 9P133 and 9P148 for 8.3-8.7. Further on you have TOW capable vehicles that would get you to 9.0. The Javelin-based vehicles probably wouldn’t be higher than 9.3 max because it has one Javelin at a time and F&F struggles in-game currently unless you’re in an open field. Mockups are usually a miss with Gaijin. You can’t rely on small wheeled cars to fill the voids of top Rank.
- The two LT lines would have to be condensed into one line as there isn’t enough to make two balanced throughout the tree which would bring it down to 4 lines instead which isn’t a big deal. Many of the early LT’s and MT’s share similar guns and armor which often gets stretched out to fill BR’s even though they can’t really compete at these levels.
- Large SPAA gaps throughout the tree (while this is a theme in a few countries, it’s deeply unpopular). Have the OSA but that’s it. Vehicles with the need of FCU’s are likely not going to be implemented any time soon or at all.
- MT line: The T-72M2 Moderna may or may not be able to be used because of its Event status. Maybe only the early one. Early Cold War era light due to lack of diversity. It doesn’t have significant lineups for the different BR’s. While there might not be many gaps overall, there isn’t many to create a solid lineup.
- The tree heavily relies on prototypes or very specific/few produced vehicles compared to other nations.
- The BR’s for what the vehicles are actually capable of compared to one another actually compresses BR’s causing larger gaps.
- Other tree’s like the Air tree have a lot of gaps because when people create these trees they spread the BR’s out to make it work vice what the capabilities are of the plane. A lot of the planes have similar characteristics which would group BR’s tightly together and cause gaps.
Other notes:
- I’m not going to completely dog on the tree. There are positives. The Leopard 2A4/2A8 (if the 2A8 procurement goes through) would significantly help top Rank. There is some other T-72 prototypes or production vehicles like the T-72EA.
Summary:
- In all, the problem is many of these trees are misrepresented as the vehicles capabilities are often stretched to fill BR’s that they cannot compete in. This is very evident here. This wouldn’t cause a gap here and there but there would be several gaps. It’s important to break down ammunition capabilities, armor, etc., to effectively balance the BR’s in the tree as well as find correct placement to allow smooth transitions from say early-WWII era into USSR/Cold War era. I’m at fault a little bit in this tree and I have to go back and try to fix things. I haven’t seen your tree so I’m not judging yours or saying you didn’t do that or anything. A Czechoslovakian tree struggles in this realm. Things that would make it better would be combining it with another nation and introducing a sub-tree but this eventually leads to an almost Visegrad-level tree.
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You did good job. Like this idea. +1 Hello from Slovakia too :D
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I’m really suprised that Visegrad idea is still alive. And I’m happy about it. Also thanks @Miltaccfd for showing OT-62 Grom. Beside that, i would like propose some vechicles for your tree. In case of SPAA line, sadlly most of vechicles you proposed are not really possible to add into game. As Militaccfd mentioned earlier, both of polish 75mm artillery didn’t carry any ammunition, SPA 25C would be quite weak with only one 13,2mm machine gun, and iirc there’s no photos of any hungarian krupp protze with Flak cannons. Howewer, there’s few czechoslovakian’s desings that would perfectlly fit into ranks I-II. There are Tatra 82 trucks with mounted 15 and 20 mm guns.
And for rank II, quite funny (and I hope efective vechicles) woud be two OT-62/TOPAS variants. TOPAS-2AP with anti-aircraft turret with single KPVT gun and OT-62 Vydra I with 23mm cannon (that was able to fire 19mm HEAT rounds) I’m almost sure that this machines would fit early ranks almost perfect.
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Wow. This is very well done, includes a lot of less-well-known vehicles, is relatively coherent too and would make for a strong tree. I am very impressed, +1 from me, but Hungary is already going to Italy as a subtree.
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I’m very grateful to see Hungary in-game but going along with what you said, I don’t expect to see this tree to be opportune anymore with Hungary locked in with Italy sadly
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You could rebrand it as a Slavic tech tree, or a Czechoslovak + Polish tree.
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Or simply divide it into a Czechoslovak and Polish tech tree. Poland would get Baltics and Czechoslovakia could get Switzerland maybe.