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Thanks
not a bug LOL
经典 not a bug 笑拉了
经典Not a BUG
Image lock-on in games is a photo contrast mode that lock-on by recognizing the visible spectrum.
Let’s point out the problem with this report.
In the two sources above, it mentions that the TY-90 has an IR dual-band seeker, then takes a completely different source about IR imaging lock-on and claims that it has image lock-on. And that source doesn’t mentiond that TY-90 has IR imaging lock-on seeker.
And even not meet the standards for the report.
Spoiler
What is appropriate source material for historical issues?
- OEM Manuals (primary source): User manuals, repair manuals, factory manuals, operating manuals, technical manuals etc. Single source is required (preferred source).
- Authored works (secondary source): Reference books on collections of vehicles/aircraft/ships (‘coffee table books’), biographies, specialist books, “expert” opinion publications, industry magazines etc. At least two unrelated sources required.
Please be reminded that Wikipedia or other private websites are not considered reliable sources.
You need to provide the following information about the source:
- Title and if applicable: publication date, document number, ISBN.
- Author or organisation
- Image of the cover
- Images of all the referenced pages and their page numbers
- References for photographs
Also, that source only explains the difference between IR image guidance and IR guidance. Nowhere does it explain that a IR dual-band seeker is lock-on by recognizing the visible spectrum.
And the sources that claim TY-90’s seeker has directly attacks helicopter rotors say rather differently. They mention warhead is effectiveness in destroying weak parts such as helicopter rotors/engines.
Nowhere does it claim that the TY-90’s seeker directly identifies and destroys parts like the rotor.
For a better understanding of photocontrast mode, see the following posts:
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I don’t think the standards for reporting can even be met by the devs themselves for the missile (not a dig at them, just that this missile is still very classified). The only lead for any reliable information is: ODIN - OE Data Integration Network which is not accepted as ‘credible’ for reasons or Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons (preferably 2023-2024 35th edition). Jane’s would be ideal to take a peek and see what they say, but I’m not dropping ~$2,000 to get a copy of it. Of course if Gaijin has a copy of it and would like to share what they say on the page for the TY-90, then they can clear up any doubts on how the TY-90 performs in-game compared to reality.
ODIN reports the TY-90 as an IR and UV dual band seeker while a second version uses an ImIR seeker instead. This is consistent with the claims seen on various third party sources.
Also, I’m quite curious if we could get some official statements from the devs on why the TY-90 got nerfed against helicopters, from a lock range of ~6km to now ~2km despite this being the first missile to specifically hunt helicopters? Or why the Ka-52 DIRCM works against this missile? Or select aircraft can flare the missile quite reliably (Tornado, A-10, Su-25, Ka-50/52)?
ODIN is just a CnP from the Wikipedia TY-90 page 2008-2013. There is a reason why developers do not acknowledge ODIN as a source.
ODIN:
Spoiler
TY-90 (Chinese: 天燕-90; pinyin: Tiān Yàn-90; literally: ‘Sky Swallow-90’) is the first air-to-air missile specifically developed for military helicopters in dogfights. Contrary to the erroneous claims, the missile is not developed from MANPAD missiles such as QW-1 Vanguard, but instead, it is designed as an air-to-air missile from the start. It is the world first air to air missile that is specifically designed for helicopters. Later, the surface-to-air version was further developed from the air-to-air version. Chinese determined that the MANPAD missiles converted for helicopter use in dogfights was not adequate, so a brand new air-to-air missile specifically for helicopter use was sanctioned, and TY-90 was the resulting product. The 3 kg warhead of the missile is specially designed to sever the rotary wing with a single shot, and the missile has all-aspect attack capability. The missile is designed to ensure a single shot would be sufficient to down an attack helicopter, or at least knock it out of action. At least three additional versions have been developed in addition to the basic version, and two of them being air-to-air versions. The first adopts a dual-band guidance, adding UV to the original IR, while the second adopts an ImIR guidance. During the 5th Zhuhai Airshow held at the end of 2004, a ground-launched air defense version appeared, with designation of DY-90, which was essentially the original TY-90, but with an additional option of incorporating a rocket booster to increase range upon customer’s request. A navalized surface-to-air version is also developed, utilizing the FLS-1 system and the basic version with IR guidance, thus providing a fire-and-forget capability in comparison to the case where QW-3 is used. However, this navalized version has not entered service as of 2008, and the reason is reportedly because that the Chinese military wants to wait until the more advanced dual-band or Imaging IR (ImIR) version to be incorporated into the FLS-1 system, which are currently under development. However, at Zhuhai Airshow, AVIC I, the developer of TY-90 only acknowledged the developing and active marketing such systems, but refused to further confirm whether the Chinese military or any foreign customers had placed any orders, and neither did the developer confirm such developmental works were privately funded by the developer or received any funds from the state or foreign customers. Despite marketing efforts, as of 2008, there is no known export of TY-90 of any kind.
Wikipedia:
Spoiler
Chinese discovered the MANPAD missile converted for helicopters in dogfights was not adequate, so a brand new air-to-air missile specifically for helicopter used was sanctioned, and TY-90 was the resulting product. The 3 kg warhead of the missile is specially designed to sever the rotary wing with a single shot, and the missile has all-aspect attack capability. The missile is designed to ensure a single shot would be sufficient to down an attack helicopter, or at least knock it out of action.
At least three additional verions have been developed in addition to the basic version, and two of them being air-to-air version. The first adopts a dual-band guidance, adding UV to the original IR, while the second adopts an ImIR guidance. During the 5th Zhuhai Airshow held at the end of 2004, a ground launched air defense version appeared, with designation of DY-90, which was essentially the original TY-90, but with an additional option of incorporating a rocket booster to increase range upon customer’s request.
A navalized surface-to-air version is also developed, utilizing the FLS-1 system and the basic version with IR guidance, thus providing a fire-and-forget capability in comparison to the case where QW-3 is used. However, this navalized version has not entered service as of 2008, and the reason is reportedly because that the Chinese military wants to wait until the more advanced dual-band or Imaging IR (ImIR) version to be incorporated into the FLS-1 system, which are currently under development. However, at Zhuhai Airshow, AVIC I, the developer of TY-90 only acknowledged the developing and active marketing such systems, but refused to further confirm whether the Chinese military or any foreign customers had placed any orders, and neither did the developer confirm such developmental works were privately funded by the developer or received any funds from the state or foreign customers.
Despite marketing efforts, as of 2008, there is no known export of TY-90 of any kind.
Also Jane’s? Jane’s is making so many mistakes about Eastern vehicles, developers will no longer accept Jane’s as a source. For example, 2019-2020 edition of Jane’s mentions that the Japanese Type 89 IFV does not have stabilizers.
And that ODIN is based on Wikipedia, not worth considering.
Previous reports have not provided any evidence that the TY-90 was mounted ImIR seeker, and there is currently no ImIR seeker in the game.
What we have in the game is a photocontrast seeker, which works on a different logic than ImIR.
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So how does this explain the ability of the TY90 to identify and attack enemy rotors in reality?
Look at the original text, that part only mentions that the warhead is effective against the rotor. Nowhere does it say that the seeker recognizes the rotor and attacks it.
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Thank you for the explanation of why ODIN is not a good source.
I have also noticed errors with Janes, particularly with the Chinese tanks, but beggers can’t be choosers if there is no information out there.
I did just find this book: https://www.books.com.tw/products/CN10141702. I’m looking into grabbing a copy of it, seems to have a good amount of information on Chinese missiles including the TY-90 being mentioned.
That said, not to derail the thread, but has anybody here had any experiences ordering from JingDong? I see they have some copies and offer international shipping, just don’t wanna get scammed trying to get a copy.
You need your best friend:Z-lib
Wow! That’s great, saves me some money too and makes it easier to toss into a translator, thanks! I’ll start digging thru it in a little bit and post what I find.
I’m not exactly too sure as to why the TY-90 would need another buff, relative to other helicopter-fired AAMs it’s already overperforming. The only part I can agree on is DIRCM (applies to most IR AAMs really), it shouldn’t really prevent you from locking the missile but rather attempt jamming the missile after launch. That and maybe increasing the heat signature of helicopters a notch.
Other AAM’s aren’t at the same tech level as the TY-90, an early 2000’s missile. The only thing that would be comparable to it would be is if the AH-1Z got the Aim-9X. The seeker is a 4 multielement seeker with a digital processor used to filter out IR-interference. DIRCM would not work on the missile since it is seeing 4 wavelengths in the IR spectrum, where DIRCM should blind 1 and be filtered out by the processor. As for helicopter lock-on range, it is unrealistic to think that the new anti-helicopter missile was designed to only be able to lock on ~2km. The missile is very sensitive, helicopters aren’t exactly IR stealthy either.
As to whether it NEEDS the buff or not, well did the Leo 2’s NEED their spall liners? No, they already were the best tanks in game. Furthermore, Chinese heli’s are over BR’d already because of these missiles. So I would at least expect them to work as they should and be able to kill a Ka-52, which still gets the luxury of slinging Vikhrs at anything even though the missile needed to be set before flight for air or ground targets…
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Fair points, actually. It is pretty funny seeing the Chinese helicopters being heavily skewed towards AA duties just because of the TY-90s, while having underwhelming AG munitions in contrast. I also agree with adding the 9X to the AH-1Z, as it can only carry 2 of them unlike the maximum of 16 TY-90s on the Z-10. Adding the 114K to it would also be nice since it still uses the 114Bs for some reason.
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However, AH-1Z can suspend 12 114K while suspending 9M, while Z-10 can only suspend a maximum of 8 AKD-10