The saddening situation bombers are in

[Admiral_Pieter]

Play B-29, and see if those .50 cals are useful.

[PercussionCap]

Maybe if gaijin adds the XP-40Q I’ll make my way up the USA air tree a little faster.

[Gnza10091441]

It’s just an example image; I didn’t make it. The issue with convergence has been reported multiple times.

Automatic 'gun targeting distance' for aircraft gunners

I’m surprised that you’re so skeptical about this topic. You should try the BV 238 someday.

@PercussionCap

Pe-8’s defensive gunners are nowhere near that far apart,

It’s true that they aren’t that far apart, but to begin with, gun convergence shouldn’t be a thing when turrets are operated locally, with the sight right on the gun. Indeed, this has to be one of the biggest historically unfounded nerfs to bombers that has always been present.

@PercussionCap

That P-47 didn’t get continuously shot at for four minutes straight, you got glancing hits on

Most of those hits were from long range while I kept my distance. It’s clear that the 12.7 mm isn’t effective when it goes solo, like a stray bullet with low energy. But we’re making a comparison, you know? In that case, if I had 20 mm cannons with latent explosive filler that don’t need a massive burst of ammo to work, it would have been a different story…

[Admiral_Pieter]

The BV is the only bomber I personally have difficulties intercepting.

All other bombers, I just have to sneeze in their general direction and they are down

[PercussionCap]

@Gnza10091441

But we’re making a comparison, you know? In that case, if I had 20 mm cannons with latent explosive filler that don’t need a massive burst of ammo to work, it would have been a different story…

But with much fewer shots fired, there’s a chance you might not have hit at all.

@Gnza10091441

You should try the BV 238 someday.

I’m not a fan of overly large bombers. The Ju88s are probably my favorite bomber in the game, and I’ve not used many others that much. The He 177, Ki-49s, and Ki-67s I have played a bunch in Sim to spade them, and I’ve not had any issues with gunners there - in fact, IMO they were a little too effective there as often I could easily kill players before they could sight me in.

[ZE4L0T]

I think it would be a good idea if everyone spawned in at the same altitude and bombers got access to a squadron of bombers like in the single player campaigns.

[GNDM_Panzer]

@PercussionCap

Sim

This is where you nullify nearly all of your argument.

Sim and RB are different animals. I trust you know this, so why mention it at all?

[PCPaulDPearl]

Yes I really think there need to be another way to introduce bombers into general battles so that they’re both useful as bombers and not flying all by themselves into the battle. That goes for all modes.

[PCPaulDPearl]

He said he spaded his bombers there…

and I say (as an active sim player) he may not have played as a bomber in sim recently.

The guns are effective but the gunners won’t open fire unless you’re on fire.

[PercussionCap]

@GNDM_Panzer

This is where you nullify nearly all of your argument.

Sim and RB are different animals. I trust you know this, so why mention it at all?

Because that’s where bombers are most useful, where objectives and match length allow them to be relevant. Bombers in RB only truly work at low tier where enemies are too poorly armed or too slow to be big threats.

Also, flying is slightly more challenging and involved than pointing your mouse one way and letting the instructor do all the hard work.

@PCPaulDPearl

he may not have played as a bomber in sim recently.

I played them like… last month? I don’t need gunners to fire automatically when I can (and SHOULD) do it myself.

[Zyranovos]

Sim is the best for bombing, hands down, it could be streamlined, like your bombardier knowing set target coordinates, and mark it on the map where it’s more visible from the bombardier sight.

We are still missing loads of bombers, the Handly Page Victor, Avro Vulcan, Tupelov 95 “Bear,” Tupelov 160 “blackjack,” the massive Convair B-36, and tons and tons more.

[QTip_44]

Flying the bomber and working the guns manually is just too much for a player to handle - especially when there is multiple fighters in the area that are attacking.

Fighters have such a huge advantage being much faster and more maneuverable - their targeting is already controlled by their path.

Bombers need something for sure as the planes at their BR climb too fast - interception BEFORE getting to base is inevitable if any fighter is not too lazy to climb. Once they climb there’s not much doubt about the outcome.

[CleanupOnIL-8]

the big advantage to bombers in sim is the 3rd person gunner view

[SpeclistMain1]

@PercussionCap

Just proved me right lmao

You’re wrong, as tailsitting is incredibly safe.

@PercussionCap

With a low closure rate, being a stationary target, and putting yourself in view of the most amount of defensive turrets? Again, delusional.

Being a stationary target isn’t going to matter if there are very few MGs that can fire at a tailsitter, of which every bomber I’ve ever played specifically has blindspots for most of the turrets directly behind the bomber.

@PercussionCap

Damn its almost as if you could just control them manually like every other vehicle in the game, aside from ships which have TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF GUNS.

It’s almost like bombers have different people doing different things in a bomber, just like in naval (fighters don’t).

@PercussionCap

The B-29 has two belly turrets, two dorsal turrets, and a tail gunner position.
The G8N only has one turret on belly/dorsal positions, alongside a tail gunner and a nose turret. The B-29’s turrets offer much better coverage as they’re closer together and any turrets on top/bottom (4/5 defensive positions) can shoot in a 360deg arc. On the G8N, only 2/4 can do the same.

B-29 Defensive Armament:

• 1 turret of 4x 12.7mm M2 (only AP, API, I, or API-T)
• 4 turrets of 2x 12.7mm M2 (only AP, API, I, or API-T)

G8N1 Defensive Armament:

• 3 turrets of 2x 20mm Type 99 Model 2 Mark 5 (HEF-T, HEF, APHE, FI, T)
• 1 turret of 1x 13mm Type 2 (AP, HE-I, I)
• 1 turret of 1x 13mm Type 2 (AP, HE-I, I)

Would you rather have the majority of your aircraft be covered by 2x 20mm cannons who get access to HE rounds, or the majority of your aircraft being covered by 2x 12.7mm with at best API? How about 2x 20mm with HE rounds at 6.0 BR or 2x 12.7mm with only AP rounds at 7.0 BR?

@PercussionCap

…which the G8N is not. It’s as slow and big as a heavy bomber.

It’s not that far off (<50 km/h) light and medium bombers at the BR.

@Gnza10091441

So what? The B-29’s turrets are just simple and useless machine guns. Sure, they might have twice as many barrels as the G8N1, but you also need ten times more hits to bring down a plane. Just watch how long it takes to kill a fighter with this gun:

Exactly.

@PercussionCap

.50cals are not useless by any stretch of the imagination lol. At least when I’m the one being shot at by .50s from a bomber, they have no issues whatsoever dispatching me with just a few hits.

What type of even-more-paper-than-bombers fighter are you flying?

@Admiral Pieter@live

Play B-29, and see if those .50 cals are useful.

Exactly.

@QTip_44

Flying the bomber and working the guns manually is just too much for a player to handle - especially when there is multiple fighters in the area that are attacking.

Fighters have such a huge advantage being much faster and more maneuverable - their targeting is already controlled by their path.

Bombers need something for sure as the planes at their BR climb too fast - interception BEFORE getting to base is inevitable if any fighter is not too lazy to climb. Once they climb there’s not much doubt about the outcome.

Exactly.

[Gnza10091441]

It could be even stronger. In fact, the only reason the BV 238 is at 3.7 BR is that the turrets keep doing this abomination:

The day this plane can make its 12x13 mm + 2x20 mm actually reach the target, it will immediately become a 6.0 BR.

[Admiral_Pieter]

Yeah, thats quite true

[PercussionCap]

@SpeclistMain1

tailsitting is incredibly safe

Delusional.

@SpeclistMain1

there are very few MGs that can fire at a tailsitter

The B-29 can bring, at the very least, the same firepower as a P-51 to bear on someone tailsitting.

@SpeclistMain1

Would you rather have the majority of your aircraft be covered by 2x 20mm cannons who get access to HE rounds, or the majority of your aircraft being covered by 2x 12.7mm with at best API?

*6x 12.7mm due to much better turret placement

@SpeclistMain1

It’s not that far off (<50 km/h) light and medium bombers at the BR.

Up at 7600m, which you’ve said they’ll never reach. At low alt, the A-26B is 100kph faster than the G8N, even faster than some fighters.

@SpeclistMain1

What type of even-more-paper-than-bombers fighter are you flying?

Literally any fighter ever that isn’t something armored like a Bf 110 G.

[SpeclistMain1]

@PercussionCap

The B-29 can bring, at the very least, the same firepower as a P-51 to bear on someone tailsitting.

The B-29 can bring at most 4x 12.7mm M2 MGs with only AP rounds to bear on a tailsitter. That is BR 2.3 level armament. Actually, let’s compare the armament of the G8N1 to the B-29.

G8N1:

• Tail - 4x 20mm (T, FI, APHE, HEF-T)
• Maximum Side (assuming the top and bottom turrets can hit enemies if not blocked by the wing) - 4x 20mm (T, FI, APHE, HEF-T) + 1x 13mm (I, AP, HE-I)
• Minimum Side - 2x 20mm (T, FI, APHE, HEF-T) + 1x 13mm (I, AP, HE-I)
• Front - 2x 20mm (T, FI, APHE, HEF-T) + 2x 13mm (I, AP, HE-I)
• Top Hemisphere - 2x 20mm (I, FI, APHE, HEF-T) + 1x 13mm (I, AP, HE-I)

B-29:

• Tail - 4x 12.7mm M2 (AP, API, I, API-T)
• Maximum Side - 8x 12.7mm M2 (AP, API, I, API-T)
• Minimum Side - 6x 12.7mm M2 (AP, API, I, API-T)
• Front - 6x 12.7mm M2 (AP, API, I, API-T)
• Top Hemisphere - 6x 12.7mm M2 (AP, API, I, API-T)

Oh wow, the G8N1 has much better armament in virtually all areas and is at a lower BR.

@PercussionCap

Up at 7600m, which you’ve said they’ll never reach. At low alt, the A-26B is 100kph faster than the G8N, even faster than some fighters.

Potentially, but the same would apply to the B-29.

@PercussionCap

Literally any fighter ever that isn’t something armored like a Bf 110 G.

Ah, so nothing the B-29 currently faces (as everything it faces has enough armor to render the 12.7mm M2 virtually useless beyond 500m).

[PercussionCap]

@SpeclistMain1

The B-29 can bring at most 4x 12.7mm M2 MGs with only AP rounds to bear on a tailsitter.

3x of its turrets., 6x .50cals. Top ones can also attack backwards, if you’re banking a little or giving it some slip.

@SpeclistMain1

Oh wow, the G8N1 has much better armament in virtually all areas and is at a lower BR.

Man I wonder why the slower bomber with a fraction of the bombload is a lower BR

@SpeclistMain1

so nothing the B-29 currently faces

Again, bomber mains are delusional. Thinking 6x .50s does nothing when I just saw a Ki61 get obliterated by a P-61’s rear gunner (4x .50s) in seconds takes a special kind of mental problem.

[SpeclistMain1]

@PercussionCap

That’s not from a tailsitting position.

@PercussionCap

Man I wonder why the slower bomber with a fraction of the bombload is a lower BR

I wonder why the B-29 is at 7.3, then, since besides bombload it is massively slower than everything at its BR and does not have equal or favorable armament compared to the fighters around its BR.

@PercussionCap

Again, bomber mains are delusional. Thinking 6x .50s does nothing when I just saw a Ki61 get obliterated by a P-61’s rear gunner (4x .50s) in seconds takes a special kind of mental problem.

The Ki-61s -

• Ki-61-I Otsu: 3.7 BR, no frontal armor
• Ki-61-I tei: 4.3 BR, no frontal armor
• Ki-61-II Otsu Kai: 4.7 BR, no frontal armor

What the B-29 faces -

• Me-262: 7.0-8.0 BR, frontal armor that makes all of the aircraft except for the engines and the (extremely small) cockpit sides immune to the B-29’s bullets at 500m
• Su-9: 7.0 Br, frontal armor that makes all of the aircraft except for the engines, nose guns, and (extremely small) cockpit sides immune to the B-29’s bullets at 500m
• MiG-15: 8.0-8.3 BR, frontal armor that makes all of the aircraft except for the sides of the engine immune to the B-29’s bullets at 500m

While these are not all of the opponents the B-29 faces, and not all of the planes that it faces have armor, but all of the opponents the B-29 faces can pen the B-29 from farther away than the B-29 can pen them.

Also don’t forget that the B-29 is facing against planes that go 1.3-1.6x as fast as the Ki-61s.