The last PZ IV, with sloped armor (paper panzer)

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Hello everybody!
I know that many do not like to talk about tank projects that did not materialize.
But I personally find it very interesting what the development of the Pz IV could have become.

In December of 1942, Krupp was ordered to redesign future Ausf H model to have sloped front and side armor. The project was cancelled in February of 1943 due to increase in weight to 28tons that required additional modifications and instead Ausf H based on original hull was to be produced

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At first the idea was to have 60mm armor on the hull and maintain the same turret.
But later it was studied replacing the tower with a stronger one.

Pz.Kpfw. IV Vereinfachter turm projekt W 1466
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This project was never completed, but it plants, were found by the Allies after the war.
I think that would be a great addition to the 4.7~5.0

My best regards

PS: If anyone wants to use this information to make a suggestion, feel free.

8 Likes

Why is this in the machine of war discussion and not vehicle suggestion?

3 Likes

Because I’m tired of spending hours editing a topic and that topic not being accepted by the moderators.
So I’m just going to put it here, so that if anyone is interested, they can use this to make a suggestion.

12 Likes

It’s a paper design of course they are not gonna approve it. That’s the thing they typically only approve designs that exist.

3 Likes

I made several suggestions for tanks that were actually manufactured, but they still did not approve my suggestions.

3 Likes

You made several posts that are not in the suggestion tab since they likely lack needed information.

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Weight problems werent the only problem, but also the war situation. Losses needed to be replaced and they could choose. 1. Stop production, retool for the new designe or 2. Continue as is with 80mm hull to fill the gaps.
They choose the economical solution.

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sloped armour Pz.IV isn’t real it can’t hurt you

sloped armour Pz.IV

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It’s paper, so no.

If it has built unique parts, then it could be suggested as an unfinished prototype, that’s your best chance. If it doesn’t have any unique stuff, then yea it won’t be accepted.

1 Like

You’re better off just adding this
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Panzer III: that had improvised armor protection welded to it.

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Same turret, it’s a modified Panzer II Turret with a 37mm cannon.

4 Likes

Ohoooo, i know what im gonna suggest after coming back from holidays.

3 Likes

Thank you for finding the gem.

I marked the points for the identification on the picture below fitting to the text below:

This is a Pz III Ausf.J with the 20mm HHA Vorpanzer on the Turret and Hull (Tho with less stand off on the hull, to be in line with the side armor aparently), visible with the Fahrersehklappe 50, with a cutout above for the Periscope Peep holes. And the Mushroom Cooling Covers. For the turret visible, by the small amout of gunmantled visible in which the Recoil Cylinders are inside.
The Triangular turret side faces are elongated to a length in line with the Turm Vorpanzer.

Visible by thickness and cince the important Standoff for the sidearmor (would it be like Schützen) is missing and angled inwards, also around 20mm for the side armor, on the turret and hull, (the turret looks similar as the Vorpanzer for Pz IV turrets) and the hull armor similar to the add on side armor for the Pz IV Ausf.E (of course this is a “eagle Eye estimathion” as well as “logical thinking” and could be wrong.)

Pz III Ausf.J Zusatzpanzerung

4 Likes

I mean, I would really like to see this, but sadly I don’t think it can be added. At least not with the current requirements anyway.

I’ve always liked that model. Great work whoever made that.

Unfortunately if it’s paper it’s paper, and doesn’t have a place in the game.

would love to see this sloped armor pz4 and / or pz3/4 einheitsfahrgestell. it seems there a lot of different design ideas for a late pz4 and there is indeed so much potential in a pz3/4 hybrid with sloped armor and according armament like kwk40 l48 or similar its even scary and it even seems like some of it were produced as prototypes in small number.

In March 1944, Wa Pruef 6 awarded contracts for the production of three trial Pz.Kpfw. IV auf Einheitsfahrgestell. A decision was made in June 1944 to start Pz.Kpfw.III/IV series production at Krupp-Grusonwerk in February 1945. On 12 July 1944, Krupp was informed that the Pz.Kpfw.III/IV was dropped and only the Panzerjaeger with L/70 produced.

Failed Fusion | Panzerkampfwagen auf Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV Ausf.A

theres even another design template that seems to show the new panther f / 2 schmalturm and another kind of sloped interlaced armor on a pz3-type chassis:

“In hindsight the Germans should have gone with the Pz.III/IV sloped armour design in 1942. In 44, maybe 43 they could have mounted the schmalturm turret with the Kw.K 42 L/70.”

another paper design called SdKfz. 161/6 Panzer IV, Ausf. K (K) that shows advanced turm capabilities:

Hi, while you wont see one with Schmalturm, i am working on making a suggestion for it, as luckily it counts as incomplete Prototype to my knowlege, as the Intended unique Running gear and wheels were build and trailed.

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i hope you will succeed - because ive tried already today but it got turned down / discarded immediately even without notification. :Z

pz3/4 einheitsfahrgestell is also not on the list of vehicles that have been suggested but denied already.

wikipedia mentions at least 1 completely built prototype and other sources three more trial prototypes built in complete. the question is how did they look and what were they composed of. that would have to be documented with source material. the wikipedia article discusses some of it.

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Wikipedia isnt a source and when suggestions are archived (duo to various reasons) they never give a answer, if you want one, you need to ask.

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never said it was - but i see what you want to point out.

Opera Snapshot_2025-02-06_223540_en.wikipedia.org

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personally i would start with these: Die deutschen Panzerkampfwagen III und IV mit ihren Abarten is actually two books in a series of many others* which are highly revised and published by motorbuch verlag stuttgart.

original title:

Die deutschen Panzerkampfwagen III und IV mit ihren Abarten 1935 - 1945, 1. Januar 1968

and

Der Panzerkampfwagen 4 und seine Abarten Spielberger, Walter Motorbuch, 1975

both books were highly revised unto 2010 and 2013 and have been re-published in several editions over the decades with a lot of additions.

another german book mentions as sources- for example: “bundesarchiv, tamiya (color drawings), bildband 11. pz.div., archiv scheibert, archive podzun-pallas verlag, zeitschrift […]”

there is mention of a pz3 schachtellaufwerk complete tank having been built, too, but no information about pz3/pz4 einheit can be found - or it could be exactly this one or one that is related to this project.

it seems tamiya often adds a lot of historical information along with their products. they probably have some kind of history division that would have done research into the variants and how they looked.

the latest editions can be acquired from amazon or motorbuch verlag, for example:

there should be many many other books that will have references on the models talked about here.

what i find funny - as a german - is that they refer to the (other) variants as “abarten”. in german its like saying: “omg, no! what are you doing?! you cant do this! you cant make a tank like that!” actually you would have to say: “pz3 or pz4 und seine / ihre ausführungen” - or sth

and its so true for this topic because the pz3, pz4 chassis makes you come up with a lot of insane ideas / ausführungen on what to possibly mount on top of it, because the design is so capable in itself. the word ausführungen really describes the mental thinking process that went into the shaping of the differences and thereby namegiving.

they couldve simply come up with an enlarged version of the pz3: bigger size, bigger armor, bigger gun but same shape - similar to the kv-1 and i find the kv-1 hull and pz3 hull very similar; if you look at the the rear and the front they look very similar in style - or - come up with a tank / armor design like stug or hetzer but with rotateable turret because apparently it was a huge issue if you needed to turn the gun with a fixed turret: increased wearout on mechanical parts, tracks need to be turned by engine, gun traverse is very limited with stug, pak, jagd, etc.

simple, big 1-lined wheels like hetzer, panther has that would give similar protection like t-34 wheels could also be very beneficial to such a tank on paper to provide additional protection; schachtellaufwerk seems way too complex and expensive. sure its good to have but hard to keep up.

the best design vision of “pz4.5” to me seems daimler benz vk3002 (db) because its just perfect in all aspects: diesel, aligned sloped armor, excellent weaponry, design and overall protection in all directions. it would be interesting to know if there are any similarities between the pz4 k, pz3/4 einheit, mehrzweck, 9/bw and vk db or if there was any interfacing and cross influencing in their respective r&d.

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