Well I’m sorry you have so much trouble playing early SAMs against WW2 aircraft.
G.91 and Scimitar don’t have ballistics computers, Buccaneer is outside the BR range we’re talking about, and how many nations, out of 10, get SAAB-105 or Alpha jet? Oh right, 3.
SAMs mean CAS has to cancel all CAS duties to dodge. Gepard 1A2 is an epecially bad offender since it also has very powerful close-range guns and radar.
F-84F isn’t balanced, but it’s the only option for most nations.
I’ve played plenty of CAS. Do you have any idea how few deaths in Imp.Chapparal and M247 were to planes? Next to none.
That’s a flimsy deflection from the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about. The only WW2 aircraft they can see is the Me-163 B-0, which is a incredibly strange pick for CAS that I’ve only ever seen once.
Funnily enough, it did quite well, being small and agile enough to dodge SPAA fire, and being entirely immune to IR guided missiles by just switching the engine off.
Not really. All IR guided SAMs around this tier have a deadzone of about 2km where the missile is entirely unable to pull enough lead to hit a target. The only exception is the Shilka M4, since it has thrust vectoring on the missile after launch. It, however just misses because it’s a 10G missile.
This means if you’re in range for a CAS strike with any weapon remaining at the tier, you’re also within the minimum range of missiles. You do have to contend with the guns for those that have them (most don’t, only 4 have both), however these are the same guns you were dealing with at 8.3 or lower.
It isn’t even the best option for most nations.
For the US, I’d take any of the F9Fs over it.
Germany doesn’t really have an 8.3 lineup, and you have the G/91 and Alpha Jet for 8.7 and 9.0 respectively.
Italy also doesn’t have an 8.3 lineup, but if it did I’d unironically take the Italian Vampire over it. It’s more nimble, handles much better at low speeds, has cannons for strafing and the RP-3 s are mounted close to center, making them easy to aim. You also have the G/91 R4 premium at 8.7 to consider.
It’s only the best option for France and Israel, but that just means they lack decent CAS at the tier, not that CAS at the tier is bad.
At the tier, the only CAS aircraft you have played to any significant amount are:
A-4E: Mystifyingly low KD of 0.9 for an otherwise excellent CAS aircraft. Confusion aside, seems balanced to me
AV-8C: Not an amazing CAS platform, but a reasonable 1 KDR in it. Again, balance.
A-10A: The outlier at a whopping 4.5 KD over 167 games. Would seem to be an obvious red flag that your opinion doesn’t match your experiences.
F-84F: Despite being overtiered and outmatched, you still managed 1.1 KD in it. Again, evidence of balance to me.
F-5E: Fairly low KDR of 0.9 despite the Mavericks, but seems to be climbing, suggesting you’ve only somewhat recently unlocked them. Either way, current stats indicate balance.
And that’s it. The other aircraft you’ve flown at this tier aren’t CAS aircraft, or have so few games that the sample size is too low to say anything with certainty.
In summary, outside the A-10A you average ~1 KD in your CAS planes, indicating shockly perfect balance. If SPAA were dominant, you’d expect a solidly negative KD, wouldn’t you?
It’s a convenient smoke screen, claiming that your stats in these SPAAs are bad specifically because you go tank hunting in them, despite their utter uselessness in tank hunting. Still isn’t evidence of your deep knowledge of the class though. Certainly not evidence of the effectiveness of every other SPAA system at this tier that you haven’t even touched.
You’re the one that seems to be struggling in SAM spaa.
Yes it can. 35mms shred everything.
It’s the only option that has ballistics computers to match SAMs or radar SPAA.
The fact that SPAA is equal (it’s not, it’s more powerful, 90% of SPAA players are just braindead) shows that there’s a problem. 70sp vehicles should never be stronger than 500+ SP vehicles.
And you’re the one with zero relevant experience in said SPAAs. Your only interaction with them appears to be flying in straight lines and dying to missiles that can be easily evaded.
They’re decent against overconfident planes, but they’re also available at 8.3. At 9.7, those 35mm are expected to fight guided ordinance up to and including Mavericks with ~7km effective range. Meanwhile, even in a full 8.7 uptier (Your precious 8.3 F-84F cannot even see it at it’s own tier), it’s only as effective as it’s 8.3 counterpart if the CAS player isn’t braindead. Slightly worse, actually, since firing the stingers gives your position away.
You’re hyperfixating on a single hybrid SPAA, the others are a SIDAM, VADS, Shilka and PGZ04A, all of which have pretty poor guns even at their original tiers (The PGZ having four of the guns the ZSD63 has two of at 5.0). Meanwhile, the remaining 4 IR SAMs at the tier have no guns whatsoever, rendering them helpless once you get close.
CCRP is almost worthless, and not something I’d ever rely on to counter SAMs or even Gepard equivalents. No wonder you’ve having so much difficult if you’re flying in nice straight lines directly over them, praying that they don’t move.
I’ve had far better luck countering them with extremely low altitude popup attacks. Works better with the CCIP aircraft available at 8.7/9.0, but still works with dumb bombs with a bit of skill. Meanwhile, guided weapons like Bullpups make complete jokes out of them on the aircraft that have them.
CAS shouldn’t be an “I win” button. The reward for a cap, or a kill, should not be the ability to wipe out half the opposing team with no counterplay.
CAS should be countered by SPAA, because not only does that allow players to counter what is otherwise exceptionally powerful, but it also acts as a catchup mechanic, allowing skilled SPAA players to take out lesser skilled CAS players to invert the SP balance.
The alternative being SPAA that can’t counter CAS, meaning CAS players can wipe out the SPAA without fear and then start freefarming the poor unfortunates who have the gall to play tanks in Ground RB.
Popup attacks are pretty horrible at 7.7 - 9.3. The enemy SPAA have extremely fast turret traverse speed (ex: Gepard has 63-90 deg/s horizontal and 29.4-42 deg/s vertical). That makes snap shots very easy. They can hear your plane (and its direction) from multiple kilometres away, but you won’t know where the SPAA is until the last moment. And most planes in this BR range do not have CCIP or any ballistics computer. Couple that with the fact that many maps are too flat to even attempt this tactic.
Yes, CAS really suffers in this BR range. The dominant tactic I’ve seen is to bait out enemy fire, and then pick tanks that are as far away from SPAA as possible to attack. Even this tactic is still very risky.
And you’re the one asserting that they’re overpowered despite never having played them. Who’s opinion do you think has more weigh, someone who’s played with and against them, or someone who’s merely played against them.
35mm guns with a ~2-2.5km effective range are now equivalent to 40mm tracerless HEVT, apparently.
But hey, if we can’t trust the baseless speculation of someone who hasn’t even played a single game with them, what can we trust?
Hey, you’re the one who keeps insisting on using the F-84F as a benchmark (Ignoring the A-10A you excel in), while also insisting on using the single strongest hybrid SPAA that it can’t even see as it’s comparison.
Ok, so which is it? Are SPAA vastly overtuned and easily able to counter CAS, or is CAS able to counter SPAA? Inbefore you mention that this tactic only works against SPAA that sit perfectly stationary when planes are flying in straight lines right overhead.
Then I guess it’s a good think that the US is the only country in game then, huh? Otherwise those SPAA would be in some trouble.
Or is it just unbelievable that the US doesn’t have the most powerful CAS in the game at this tier?
If the only counter to an expensive vehicle is a vehicles or equal or greater price, then it is an “I win” button. The game would be decided in the opening minutes as powerful CAS spawns and prevents anyone else on the ground from accruing enough points to spawn CAS of their own.
I’d argue that CAS is balanced at this tier. They’re able to do immense damage when uncontested, but when contested they’re forced into risky strats to try and get the advantage back. Something that can pay off against weaker SPAA players.
I can only speak personally, but taking out Gepards isn’t impossible, just difficult and risky, as it should be. Just dive low when you spawn to get below their RADAR, then circle around the map to hit them from behind. That way, when they hear an engine behind them, many assume it’s a friendly passing overhead. Others will still be fumbling with their RADAR, trying to get a lock. Meanwhile, in any cannon armed CAS plane (As is my preference), you can just point and click. Don’t need a ballistics computer for a couple hundred meter shot with guns.
If you aren’t up against Gepards, just go high. The Russian RADARs at the tier have horrific coverage and poor range, so long as you climb quickly you can stay out of their scope and just dive on them.
The one you really have to look out for (And it’s funny it’s not been brought up just yet) is the PGZ09. 35mm AHEAD, good RADAR with better than average vertical coverage and thermals. That one could probably move up to 8.7 or even 9.0, but I haven’t played it yet.
I would disagree. The 9.3-9.7 stinger spaa’s are helpless against a a-10 in a uptier, but in a downtier I believe that alot of the 8.7 planes are under equipped. The 10.3-9.3 br range is just horribly compressed right know, and definitely needs to be decompressed.
No, they’re not, they better because they can also take out tanks : D and are held by a far better chassis.
No1s using F-84F as a benchmark, It’s simply the only option.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying.
America never had the best CAS, untill 12.0. The issue is that America just flat out has one of the worst CAS options and THE worst SPAA option, with nothing to balance it out.
Then that would be balanced. It would be pretty goofy for a cheap vehicle to overpower an expensive vehicle.
It’s a mostly fair opinion, though I’d say that only the Gepard 1A2 fits into this catagory. The other hybrids don’t have the overlapping gun max range/missile minimum range, making them easy to work around.
The issue is there’s no real capabilities that CAS aircraft at 8.7 can have that wouldn’t absolutely roll the SPAA in the 7.7-8.7 range. Nords and Bullpups are about the closest, which are already at 8.7, but they can also be used to pretty easily counter equal/lower tier SPAA if the pilot has experience with them (Bullpups more than Nords). CCIP is in a similar boat, a bit too strong for the planes that have it for those SPAA to consistently counter.
Plus there are helicopters to consider, the ATGM ones completely dominating the lower tiered SPAAs. Proxy SPAA/IR SAMs are the only real counter to these.
Ultimately, I’d say CAS aircraft have gotten complacent about always being useful regardless of the uptier. It doesn’t matter if you see an uptier in most CAS, since it’s always just about as powerful as the CAS at the higher tier. But now there’s a tier where spawning uptiered CAS puts you at a disadvantage (Just like most tanks in the game), and people are acting like it’s the end of the world.
That’s when I do my all in popup attack strategy with the Vampire. I respect the fact that I’m likely up against RADAR guided SPAAs, and I play accordingly. I don’t bother with all of that in an equal/downtier.
We’re talking SPAA vs CAS balance here. Tank hunting is a nice extra to have, but doesn’t factor in to this argument.
In two nations, neither of which you play.
If you’re implying that CCIP isn’t a factor at 8.7 because the US doesn’t have it, that’s wrong.
And if you’re saying that CCIP is required for low altitude runs, that’s also wrong. It merely helps, and makes it a bit faster and safer.
This is a completely wild take. US CAS is exceptional throughout almost all tiers.
Starting from as low as 3.3, you have multple, heavy bomb drops on fighter platforms with HVARs and .50s to strafe light vehicles. These get upgraded to 20mms in the mid tiers, and this combination stays exceptional all the way up to the A2D at 7.0. No other nation can compete with this.
It drops back to merely average in the early jet tiers (Although still better than several nations like Germany or Japan get), and only really falls behind the curve at 8.7-10.0. At 10.3, things go back to the absurd with the A-10A, and it remains competitive from there, only falling behind against Russia’s 20km range ATGMs.
Then ask for better SPAA (Like the American Gepard equivalent that’s just been teased), don’t tear everyone else’s SPAA down.
Also, the Sgt York is one of the best SPAAs in the entire game tier for tier, so this argument doesn’t hold up.
No, it’s basic game design. In a competitive game, you never want something to be uncounterable, no matter how much effort it took to acquire it in the first place. But you don’t want it’s counter to be the new most powerful thing, so you restrict it to primarily countering the first powerful thing. This inherently makes it less valuable.
Keeping CAS expensive and SPAA cheap does a couple of things:
It helps prevent an early lead from snowballing by ensuring there’s likely to be SPAAs available to counter CAS
It acts as a catchup mechanic, allowing a team that’s losing to turn the tide by trading SP effectively if they use SPAA effectively and the CAS players are overconfident.
It gives players who run low on SP a way to get back into the match, by playing a role that’s otherwise unpopular and unrewarding
On a low altitude bomb run, they won’t have enough time before the bomb lands. Or you use rockets on the Alpha Jet, which give no time to react. Level bombing with CCIP from altitude can work against inexperienced players, but is too unreliable to count on.
Tank hunting, especially when it’s very good at it, is a factor as far as BRs go. Gepard is more capable than M247 at everything aside from anti-air work.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying.
Decent CAS? Yes. CAS for every BR? yes. The best CAS aside from toptier? no.
No matter what BR you pick, aside from toptier, another country (usually Germany and or Russia) has a better option. The tradeoff is, that America as good options for the entirety of the tree.
What does the American Gepard have to do with this? Gepard belongs at 9.0 either way.
It’s not 8.3 or 8.7, aka the brs we were talking about.
CAS is easily counterable, especially if you have CAP.
These concepts already apply at low-mid tier battles, the problem is the balances sways too much to the side of SPAA at 8.0-.9.0
This also has the unintended side effect that bad players who are prone to dying will spawn SPAA, and because they suck, will be free kills for CAS, thus gifting the CAS more SP and a greater advantage.
Not relevant to this argument. I’d also say that the York’s advantage in anti-air work completely outstrip the Gepard’s tank hunting abilities, which are often overstated based on people seeing luck flanks in them. The standard belts are unreliable against anything remotely armored (Can’t frontally pen most comparable MBTs, let alone any heavies), and the APDS belt is exceptionally limited.
Then state it. Don’t make me play 20 questions just to figure out what your point is.
That’s an absurd statement. What are the superior vehicles to:
A-2D: All of the ordinance again, good flight performance once it’s dropped it, 7.0 OR
F-3D: 2 2000 lbs bombs, 4 20mms (Great at this tier against light vehicles), good low speed handling for a jet, 7.0
Then it drops to around average, (F-80C with 2 paired 1000 lbs drops, F9F with four smallish drops, etc). Then it falls below at 8.7, and jumps back up to absurd with the A-10, and doesn’t really drop back down again.
And before you mention it, yes, the Yak-9K is even more absurd than these. But one OP plane in one other line doesn’t make US CAS any less exceptional.
You were complaining that American lacks good SPAA at the tier. The solution is to give it good SPAA at the tier.
Also, even if the Gepard deserves 9.0 (Which it doesn’t), the XM-246 definitely doesn’t. It’s based on the M60 chassis, meaning mobility more like the Chieftain Marksman, which will severely hurt it’s tank hunting potential.
You brought up (And kept bringing up) IR SAM system at 9.3/9.7. A 9.0 SPAA fits into the range being discussed.
CAP can counter CAS, but it’s not ideal for two reasons. Firstly, it’s way more expensive, and secondly, after you’ve killed the CAS you provide next to not game impact. The best you can do is act as gun CAS against lightly armored vehicles, and spot targets with your machine guns, both of which makes you very vulnerable to enemy SPAA. Outside that, you’re forced to orbit, waiting for CAS that may or may not show up, while your team is a man down on the ground.
Even the most defenseless SPAAs can spot or cap points in dire circumstances. CAP can do nothing.
I’d argue the inverse. It’s too heavily CAS weighted early/mid tiers (Though only slightly), then reaching towards balance at this tier. Though that relies on using the strongest CAS vehicles at the tier, which aren’t well distributed admittedly.
Not exactly. If they target worse players specifically, then all they’re doing is removing the least impactful players from the match. The extra SP earned while in a CAS vehicle is less meaningful since few people bring two or more CAS vehicles into a game.
It also implies that running out of SP is the only reason to spawn in SPAA, which is wrong. Better players will see uncountered CAS (Or even a lack of SPAA coverage) and spawn it in themselves proactively. Or they’ll spawn it reactively after they die to CAS. That’s often my reaction.
Unless I’m mistaken, you were contesting the idea that Gepard and M247 should be same BR?
I regularl bring XM800T to 9.0 and it performs perfectly fine. I know that’s not exactly a fair comparison as XM800T is tiny and faster, however its guns perform perfectly fine. The Gepard’s guns have roughly the same pen, but instead of a peashooter 20mm APDS, it has full-cailber 35mm AP.
The point I was making is that America doesn’t have CCIP, until 9.7, unlike most other nations, which means it has worse CAS capabilities, especially against radar SPAA and SAMs.
France
SB2C-5, 3 individual bombs, one of which is a 2,000 LB bomb. EIGHT HVARs, and 20mm autocannons.
Firefly, two individual drop bombs, 16 RP-3s, 4 20mms.
Both of which are rank 3 btw. (Also don’t even try to say American SB2C. The French one is an objectively better model)
Germany
Me 410 A-1/U4, 2.7 - 50mm autocannon and two 20mms
Me 410 A-1 - 3.3, two 500kg bombs, two 20mms
I guess you could make the case that F6F-5 is better, but I do better in the Me 410
Russia
Il-8 - 3.7, two 500 kg bombs, two 23mms.
If you have ever played it, you will know its 500 kgs are leagues better than 1,000 LBs, and the 23mms shred EVERYTHING in seconds.
Britain
Beaufighter Mk.X - 3.0, two 1,000 LB bombs, 8 RP-3s, 4 20mms (one of the best CAS aircraft in the game IMO)
I could go on for the rest, but I think you get the point. I’m not saying America’s early-mid tier CAS is bad in any ways, but it’s never the best.
Again, that has nothing to do with the BR of the Gepard.
Yes, because 8.3 and 8.7s have to face 9.3 an 9.7 SAMs. facepalm
It’s always cheaper, aside from at toptier if you have modern missiles against a lvl 10 who’s loaded dumbfire rockets to his Su 25.
I’d played plenty of Ostwind, M19A1, AMX-13 DCA, Bosvark and Italian M42 (on my alt acc), to know that the favor is NOT heavily in CAS’s favor. CAS is extremely easy to shoot down (especially with the Bosy and Pizza M42), the issue is most SPAA players are noobs who died and can’t afford to spawn an actual tank.
