No, they’re not, they better because they can also take out tanks : D and are held by a far better chassis.
No1s using F-84F as a benchmark, It’s simply the only option.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying.
America never had the best CAS, untill 12.0. The issue is that America just flat out has one of the worst CAS options and THE worst SPAA option, with nothing to balance it out.
Then that would be balanced. It would be pretty goofy for a cheap vehicle to overpower an expensive vehicle.
It’s a mostly fair opinion, though I’d say that only the Gepard 1A2 fits into this catagory. The other hybrids don’t have the overlapping gun max range/missile minimum range, making them easy to work around.
The issue is there’s no real capabilities that CAS aircraft at 8.7 can have that wouldn’t absolutely roll the SPAA in the 7.7-8.7 range. Nords and Bullpups are about the closest, which are already at 8.7, but they can also be used to pretty easily counter equal/lower tier SPAA if the pilot has experience with them (Bullpups more than Nords). CCIP is in a similar boat, a bit too strong for the planes that have it for those SPAA to consistently counter.
Plus there are helicopters to consider, the ATGM ones completely dominating the lower tiered SPAAs. Proxy SPAA/IR SAMs are the only real counter to these.
Ultimately, I’d say CAS aircraft have gotten complacent about always being useful regardless of the uptier. It doesn’t matter if you see an uptier in most CAS, since it’s always just about as powerful as the CAS at the higher tier. But now there’s a tier where spawning uptiered CAS puts you at a disadvantage (Just like most tanks in the game), and people are acting like it’s the end of the world.
That’s when I do my all in popup attack strategy with the Vampire. I respect the fact that I’m likely up against RADAR guided SPAAs, and I play accordingly. I don’t bother with all of that in an equal/downtier.
We’re talking SPAA vs CAS balance here. Tank hunting is a nice extra to have, but doesn’t factor in to this argument.
In two nations, neither of which you play.
If you’re implying that CCIP isn’t a factor at 8.7 because the US doesn’t have it, that’s wrong.
And if you’re saying that CCIP is required for low altitude runs, that’s also wrong. It merely helps, and makes it a bit faster and safer.
This is a completely wild take. US CAS is exceptional throughout almost all tiers.
Starting from as low as 3.3, you have multple, heavy bomb drops on fighter platforms with HVARs and .50s to strafe light vehicles. These get upgraded to 20mms in the mid tiers, and this combination stays exceptional all the way up to the A2D at 7.0. No other nation can compete with this.
It drops back to merely average in the early jet tiers (Although still better than several nations like Germany or Japan get), and only really falls behind the curve at 8.7-10.0. At 10.3, things go back to the absurd with the A-10A, and it remains competitive from there, only falling behind against Russia’s 20km range ATGMs.
Then ask for better SPAA (Like the American Gepard equivalent that’s just been teased), don’t tear everyone else’s SPAA down.
Also, the Sgt York is one of the best SPAAs in the entire game tier for tier, so this argument doesn’t hold up.
No, it’s basic game design. In a competitive game, you never want something to be uncounterable, no matter how much effort it took to acquire it in the first place. But you don’t want it’s counter to be the new most powerful thing, so you restrict it to primarily countering the first powerful thing. This inherently makes it less valuable.
Keeping CAS expensive and SPAA cheap does a couple of things:
It helps prevent an early lead from snowballing by ensuring there’s likely to be SPAAs available to counter CAS
It acts as a catchup mechanic, allowing a team that’s losing to turn the tide by trading SP effectively if they use SPAA effectively and the CAS players are overconfident.
It gives players who run low on SP a way to get back into the match, by playing a role that’s otherwise unpopular and unrewarding
On a low altitude bomb run, they won’t have enough time before the bomb lands. Or you use rockets on the Alpha Jet, which give no time to react. Level bombing with CCIP from altitude can work against inexperienced players, but is too unreliable to count on.
Tank hunting, especially when it’s very good at it, is a factor as far as BRs go. Gepard is more capable than M247 at everything aside from anti-air work.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying.
Decent CAS? Yes. CAS for every BR? yes. The best CAS aside from toptier? no.
No matter what BR you pick, aside from toptier, another country (usually Germany and or Russia) has a better option. The tradeoff is, that America as good options for the entirety of the tree.
What does the American Gepard have to do with this? Gepard belongs at 9.0 either way.
It’s not 8.3 or 8.7, aka the brs we were talking about.
CAS is easily counterable, especially if you have CAP.
These concepts already apply at low-mid tier battles, the problem is the balances sways too much to the side of SPAA at 8.0-.9.0
This also has the unintended side effect that bad players who are prone to dying will spawn SPAA, and because they suck, will be free kills for CAS, thus gifting the CAS more SP and a greater advantage.
Not relevant to this argument. I’d also say that the York’s advantage in anti-air work completely outstrip the Gepard’s tank hunting abilities, which are often overstated based on people seeing luck flanks in them. The standard belts are unreliable against anything remotely armored (Can’t frontally pen most comparable MBTs, let alone any heavies), and the APDS belt is exceptionally limited.
Then state it. Don’t make me play 20 questions just to figure out what your point is.
That’s an absurd statement. What are the superior vehicles to:
A-2D: All of the ordinance again, good flight performance once it’s dropped it, 7.0 OR
F-3D: 2 2000 lbs bombs, 4 20mms (Great at this tier against light vehicles), good low speed handling for a jet, 7.0
Then it drops to around average, (F-80C with 2 paired 1000 lbs drops, F9F with four smallish drops, etc). Then it falls below at 8.7, and jumps back up to absurd with the A-10, and doesn’t really drop back down again.
And before you mention it, yes, the Yak-9K is even more absurd than these. But one OP plane in one other line doesn’t make US CAS any less exceptional.
You were complaining that American lacks good SPAA at the tier. The solution is to give it good SPAA at the tier.
Also, even if the Gepard deserves 9.0 (Which it doesn’t), the XM-246 definitely doesn’t. It’s based on the M60 chassis, meaning mobility more like the Chieftain Marksman, which will severely hurt it’s tank hunting potential.
You brought up (And kept bringing up) IR SAM system at 9.3/9.7. A 9.0 SPAA fits into the range being discussed.
CAP can counter CAS, but it’s not ideal for two reasons. Firstly, it’s way more expensive, and secondly, after you’ve killed the CAS you provide next to not game impact. The best you can do is act as gun CAS against lightly armored vehicles, and spot targets with your machine guns, both of which makes you very vulnerable to enemy SPAA. Outside that, you’re forced to orbit, waiting for CAS that may or may not show up, while your team is a man down on the ground.
Even the most defenseless SPAAs can spot or cap points in dire circumstances. CAP can do nothing.
I’d argue the inverse. It’s too heavily CAS weighted early/mid tiers (Though only slightly), then reaching towards balance at this tier. Though that relies on using the strongest CAS vehicles at the tier, which aren’t well distributed admittedly.
Not exactly. If they target worse players specifically, then all they’re doing is removing the least impactful players from the match. The extra SP earned while in a CAS vehicle is less meaningful since few people bring two or more CAS vehicles into a game.
It also implies that running out of SP is the only reason to spawn in SPAA, which is wrong. Better players will see uncountered CAS (Or even a lack of SPAA coverage) and spawn it in themselves proactively. Or they’ll spawn it reactively after they die to CAS. That’s often my reaction.
Unless I’m mistaken, you were contesting the idea that Gepard and M247 should be same BR?
I regularl bring XM800T to 9.0 and it performs perfectly fine. I know that’s not exactly a fair comparison as XM800T is tiny and faster, however its guns perform perfectly fine. The Gepard’s guns have roughly the same pen, but instead of a peashooter 20mm APDS, it has full-cailber 35mm AP.
The point I was making is that America doesn’t have CCIP, until 9.7, unlike most other nations, which means it has worse CAS capabilities, especially against radar SPAA and SAMs.
France
SB2C-5, 3 individual bombs, one of which is a 2,000 LB bomb. EIGHT HVARs, and 20mm autocannons.
Firefly, two individual drop bombs, 16 RP-3s, 4 20mms.
Both of which are rank 3 btw. (Also don’t even try to say American SB2C. The French one is an objectively better model)
Germany
Me 410 A-1/U4, 2.7 - 50mm autocannon and two 20mms
Me 410 A-1 - 3.3, two 500kg bombs, two 20mms
I guess you could make the case that F6F-5 is better, but I do better in the Me 410
Russia
Il-8 - 3.7, two 500 kg bombs, two 23mms.
If you have ever played it, you will know its 500 kgs are leagues better than 1,000 LBs, and the 23mms shred EVERYTHING in seconds.
Britain
Beaufighter Mk.X - 3.0, two 1,000 LB bombs, 8 RP-3s, 4 20mms (one of the best CAS aircraft in the game IMO)
I could go on for the rest, but I think you get the point. I’m not saying America’s early-mid tier CAS is bad in any ways, but it’s never the best.
Again, that has nothing to do with the BR of the Gepard.
Yes, because 8.3 and 8.7s have to face 9.3 an 9.7 SAMs. facepalm
It’s always cheaper, aside from at toptier if you have modern missiles against a lvl 10 who’s loaded dumbfire rockets to his Su 25.
I’d played plenty of Ostwind, M19A1, AMX-13 DCA, Bosvark and Italian M42 (on my alt acc), to know that the favor is NOT heavily in CAS’s favor. CAS is extremely easy to shoot down (especially with the Bosy and Pizza M42), the issue is most SPAA players are noobs who died and can’t afford to spawn an actual tank.
I love how your argument is. “SPAA is fine, it’s only that all SPAA players are merely bad players who spawn SPAA cause they have to.” It’s such an asinine claim and straight up outs you as another CAS main making bad faith arguments.
Reducing the Gepard 1A2 to 9.3 is enough. Putting it at 9.0 is a bit excessive. Oh wait, you’re talking about the 8.3 one? That’s a nice joke. Gepard doesn’t belong there. It has 40 shot DM23. It has no proxy ammunition. And the way things are currently modeled it struggles to hit Helicopters and Drones, a lot. Which doesn’t align with how it performs IRL.
If anything the 9.7 one or Ozelot should go down to 9.3. Since the 9.7 one still doesn’t have FAPDS which is it’s MAIN and almost exclusive belt. And inherited all the modelling issues of the 8.3 one. While stingers won’t lock onto Helicopters beyond 3 km who can way outrange you.
“But it can kill tanks!”. Mostly light ones, or bad players exposing their sides. And guess what, so can the ZSU and other gun SPAA.
A-10A isn’t super impressive, and the Gepard 1A2 would be surrounded by more powerful SPAA anyways. Ultimately, the solution is decompression, but until that happens, it’s better than Gepard 1A2 be overtiered than it be undertiered.
But it’s not undertiered. Neither the Ozelot or Gepard 1A2. They both struggle locking helicopters with the stingers in addition to be easily dodged by every plane ever. The Gepard can’t even properly shoot helicopters if they just sit behind the battle since you can easily dodge the tracer ammo aswell.
True, but a competent player in it will very easily destroy any stinger vehicle (It is just not great against other planes and more advanced spaa).
If we put the is-2 at 12.0 it would also be surrounded by more powerful tanks. Having better spaa that teammates could be in isn’t a argument for why it could go up.
True
While I do see how being overtiered might not be as bad is being undtiered, I don’t think the small amount of 8.7 planes that it can fight that will struggle justifies it going up.
Then I’ll reiterate that the M247’s massive jump in SPAA capabilities more than match the Gepards advantages in anti-tank.
The gun performs fine because it’s tiny and faster. You’re more easily able to flank and ambush than something the size of the Gepard. And if you run into something you can’t pen, you have the option to hide, unlike the Gepard who’s large size and loud engine give it away.
I haven’t disputed that point. I’ve even made it outright myself earlier on. US CAS falls behind the curve from ~8.3-9.7.
At the cost of being larger, heavier, and 0.3 BR higher.
The Firefly can only carry 8 RP-3s if it brings bombs, and they’re very far out on the wings, making them hard to aim.
Meanwhile, it’s flight performance is just tragic. I’ve never played an aircraft that struggled to maintain speed this badly, and I’ve played the IL-2s. One hard turn and you’re out of energy, meaning long slow passes are needed, or you’re a sitting duck for SPAA. Also 0.3 BR higher.
Heavy fighters aren’t comparable to a single engined fighter that once it’s dropped it’s bombs can slot into the CAP role effortlessly. Don’t oversell the 20mms either, German ones have no decent AP ammo for them.
If by “leagues better”, you mean slightly smaller blast radius, sure. The 23mms are great, but that flight performance isn’t. Vertical loops are entirely out of the question, as is any sort of energetic turn. Also 0.3 BR higher.
Haven’t played it since it got bombs, but I remember the RP-3s being a massive pain to aim with, due to how far out they are on the wings. It’s also still a heavy fighter, no chance for going into CAP after you’ve expended your ordinance. I’d probably take the Hellcat for the extra bomb and fighter capabilities.
Your literal quote was:
So America getting a good SPAA option is a valid counterpoint.
So including a 9.0 SPAA in the argument is entirely fair. Especially when what I was responding to was the same as above. America going from having no good SPAA to having one of the best ones within the same matchmaking spread is relevant.
I mean, glad you offically outed yourself as a CAS main, rather than just letting it be a somewhat obvious conclusion. Certainly doesn’t imply a level of bias that would undermine your arguments at all.
But yes, the average player with 5 free crew slots would not bring multiple CAS options. At best, it would be a fighter and a non-fighter, due to how the SP system works.
We’re back this this confounding argument again. SPAA is overtuned and destroying CAS, but it’s also driven almost exclusively by noobs who are easily ouplayed? How does this make sense to you.
A 4.5 KD isn’t super impressive? You must have very high standards. And an alt account where you’re able to achieve those results in any other CAS aircraft.
