the f-5 is more overperforming than the harrier underperforming if yk what i mean. f-5e is better than irl f-20 with the damn fa-18 engines lol
1 Like
Buddy, you’re just flat out bad at playing the Harrier.
Just because a Harrier can beat 11.0’s worst plane in a dogfight, doesn’t mean it should be 11.0.
Aww yes, it’s not the F-5 that’s bad, it’s just everyone whos ever played it that’s bad.
I guess the F-105 and A-7 are meta too.
It’s not my fault that you don’t know how to fight an F-5 whilst in a Harrier. Pointing out how your Harrier troubles are due to skill issue isn’t derailing.
Yep. F-5s need a really healthy round of nerfs and the biggest would be for them to actually model IR signatures
1 Like
That would make locking them easier at least.
Idk how it would really affect gameplay, since most IR missiles are 1 flare anyways…
1 Like
Man, I really don’t want to statshame, but why does our greatest Pangolin cries for skill issue when he has even worse stats in harriers…
I admit that I am not a great player.
But being called bad by someone who has even worse stats feels bizarre.
I think this discussion can’t make any more positive outcomes. But only will makes derailment and arguing with insults.
At least OP admired F-5 as ‘dedicated fighter jet built by fighter mafia’…
I never told you that they are meta.
Fun fact: this topic was originally more concentrated on F-5C in 10.7BR
If you compared F-5E(11.0) with Harrier GR.3(9.7) instead of F-5C(10.7)
Your claims sound even wilder.
2 Likes
You’re constantly complaining abt a vehicle that no1 else struggles with.
By your logic, they’re just being flown by bad players.
Because you are underselling them as hard as you can?
How the hell do you claim that ‘dedicated fighter jet built by fighter mafia for air combat’ dogfights worse than ‘VTOL strike jet which is artificially gelded in FM’?
F-5 easily beats Harriers. And it is in a force of nature level.
I don’t think I am the only one who complains about F-5.
Well, that is partially fact. :/
Who would’ve played either A-7 or F-105 in ARB when both of them are clearly worthless and F-111A is being superior…?
Unless the player is either one of
Bad players who are bad enough to be indistinguishable from good or bad planes.
Or
Some masochists who want to spade every single plane.
or
fans of that individual plane.
Well, Further discussion about either A-7 or F-105 without direct connection with the F-5 topic is off topic, though.
2 Likes
F-5s have been a menace for a very long time. Part of that isnt their fault, they are well suited for the furball style combat found in ARB and being a US premium, they get played a lot which naturally drags those below up, many of which are subsonic aircraft. They also have a naturally good gun, at a BR where many have really tricky to use or just downright bad guns. The F-5s guns have great ballistics, making them just easy to aim.
But there ARE undeniable facts regarding the F-5s that need to be addressed
-
Their damage models are rather insane. They can without a doubt, tank hits that would kill other aircraft. Im not sure why this is the case, and probably would need an aircraft damage model overhaul to address. But I’ve seen F-5s (and by extension the F-20) tank direct missile hits and keep going as if it was nothing
-
Flight model, for some reason, Gaijin is using a soviet source that hugely overestimates the FM. it has been reported multiple times using the actual aircraft manuals and other primary sources plenty of times before, and yet gaijin hasnt touched anything
-
IR defence. Im not going to get into the whole “The F-5C shouldnt have flares at all” argument because I just cant be bothered. But F-5s are notoriously cold aircraft. They are waaaaay harder to lock onto than almost everything else (even all aspect IR missiles) and can flare any missile with unprescedented ease. Im sure they could probably defeat IRCCM missiles, at short range, in rear aspect, whilst sat in reheat with stupid ease. In fact, an F-5 is actually colder on full reheat than an F-117 (which you can see here). Now to fully fix this, it would require a total overhaul of IR signature modeling, and well… actually model IR signatures for aircraft, but in the meantime, the F-117’s IR code could be used in reverse to increase the “IR signature” of the F-5 up to more reasonable levels and make them far less frustrating aircraft to fight when you are somewhat reliant on IR missiles for your BR, especially for the subsonics
TLDR:
F-5s are overperforming, they are annoying to fight against and they really need to do something about them
5 Likes
Predictable reply: wdym it only has AIM-9E, which can make only a 10G turn. If you complain about and suffer from one of the worst jets in War Thunder history, it is your skill issue then.
/s
2 Likes
But of course, it’s not as if an overperforming aircraft with “bad” stats [citation needed] should be corrected to perform properly and thus be evaluated for a BR rebalance with correct performance in mind.
Nope, you’re just bad at using the Harrier. It really is as simple as that.
A-7 is the best 10.3 CAS option for America. As for F-105, or really have no idea.
If the only way to make F-5 look good is by comparing it to Warthunder’s worst jet dogfighters, then maybe the F-5 just isn’t good.
F-5 isn’t exactly alone in that. It seems that almost all Warthunder jets overperform in terms of flight performance, with the only exceptions being planes that carry especially good missiles, namely A-10A and AV-8C, or a small handful of planes that Gajin randomly decided should just be unusable, namely F-105 and F-84F.
Nerfing F-5 flight model would require nerfing Mig-21, T-2, F-8U/E, and pretty much every other 10.0+ flight model that isn’t overperforming.
This is the only real reason that makes sense to me for why ppl call the F-5 OP.
the large number of F-5s + large number of 9.7-10.3 means lots of downtiers, and lots of noobs get caught up in fur balls where F-5 does well.
Hu?
Actually, most that I know about and follow (namely british ones) are underperforming rather considerably.
Why?
Why would the F-5 being nerfed down to IRL performance result in other aircraft being nerfed down below their IRL performance?
As it stands, the F-5s should probably be a higher BR than they currently are
3 Likes
I think I mentioned ‘ARB’.
Man, you are the one who brought A-7 up to compare with F-5…
Again, F-5C might not be #1 in current ARB meta.
But it doesn’t mean that it is disqualified junk.
The majority of 10.7BR jets generally have worse flight characteristics.
Bait.
According to last month’s stats.
SHAR FRS.1 early (Harrier with 2x AIM-9L on 10.7) scored 0.54 kill per spawn while F-5C kept 0.76.
Ofc, Harriers in 9.7BR have 0.59-0.67 kills per spawn.
I didn’t brought thailand F-5A this time because felt lazy this time.
After this, I am going to ignore this cope.
I think I explained quite much about this, and you are the one who shut your ears off.
2 Likes
It would be great if we could get real SHAR FM.
Then we will storm the lobby just like back in 1982. Innit?
2 Likes
Yeah… though at the moment, Id just settle for a heat signature that is colder than the sun’s corona and EEGS
2 Likes
The F-5 is one of many planes that overperform.
I disagree. Even in full downtier, it’s not especially good
And you needa play ARB to grind A2G weapons for it.
Because it’s one of the only planes that loses in a dogfight
I’m not saying it’s junk, I’m saying it’s not good, and certainly not deserving of the “OP” title.
Not really. Most 10.0-11.0s can either outrun or outturn the F-5, and many can do both. All the F-5 does well is energy retention.
So Overall performance determines 1v1 performance . . . either bait or you’re just coping extremely hard.
It doesn’t guarantee indulgence to F-5’s overperforming FM.
I would rather choose to nerf them all to historical level while F-5 takes the key role of opening the curtain.
WDYM, in full downtier, you will face only 4 jets, which share the same BR as the enemy
while you will be facing tons of other jets, which are lower in BR.
If someone brought an F-5C in a full downtier match, and he lost some random 9.7BR jet
(Harrier GR.1/3, AV-8S, T-2 or Jaguar GR.1 as examples)
It is no more than his skill issue.
Imagine F-86A-5 got punished by F3D or F-100D got punished by F-84F.
Sounds fair, but you need to keep in mind that we are mainly discussing F-5 and other jets in a2a capability.
In terms of A2A and the current meta of ARB, my point still stands.
There is no meaning to play A-7 in its current status, and in the current meta of ARB.
At this moment, I really want to know who flew that F-5 which got killed by your A-7… :/
I saw plenty of F-5, which literally wipes nearly half of the team, while the other half is just carrying bombs and crashing while taking off.
Skill level of F-5C players varies just as other premium jets usually do.
Again, I disagree about this point.
Even though the F-5C isn’t the best 10.7BR jet nowadays, there are only a few jets which perform better than the F-5C (and its variant in 10.7).
It might not be the best, but still, it comes faster when counting from the front than from the rear.
Of course, it still is too good enough to not being called as junk or ‘not good’
FYI, stat which I brought up only counts air kill.
So Kill per spawn might not directly imply the 1v1 performance, but if 1v1 performance is ‘that doomed’ as you claimed
F-5C’s kill per spawn rate will be doomed just as Bucc S.2B does.
Erm… I hope you don’t claim that even Bucc S.2B beats F-5C in dogfighting.
BTW, Don’t forget that SHAR FRS.1 shares attacker role with Bucc S.2B while carries none of the guided a2g munitions.
Personally, I wouldnt mind historical flight model nerfs, starting with the Mig-21 and 23. Flight models buffs to the Harrier would also be greatly appreciated.
The F-5 might actually become a good plane as it would be buffed relative to other 10.3-11.0 planes.
T-2, AV-8S, and Harrier Gr.3 will easily get an F-5. Idk much about Jaguar, but I can only recall seeing em base bomb.
Full downtier in F-5 just isn’t the same as full downtier in F-100 or F-86A-5.
That’s more so because there’s an oddly high number or planes at 10.0-11.0 that are only good for base bombing or for GRB.
If we exclude ground attackers/base bombers, F-5 is one of the worst 10.7/11.0s.
Do you have any sources for the Mig-21 overperforming.
It is already massively overbuffed relative to everything else, which is why it has Aim-9Es at 10.7. It’s FM is just that good.
No, the F-5 is considerably better than the harriers. I’ve played both the Av-8A, SHar FRS.1, Thai F-5E, and the ROC F-5A and I can confidently say that the F-5A is a much better platform than the harriers by quite a bit. It has infinite energy retention when pulling very hard, and it handles so much better than almost anything else at it’s BR.
I fully agree, but not because it’s not as good, but because 10.X is less compressed.
That is not true.
3 Likes
Strange…
Remember that you were the one who originally talked,
This.
Now you are trying to exclude base bombers or ground attackers from the argument at all…?
I think if I claimed that I lost to F-5 in Su-17M2 or F-111A yesterday, I would be called ‘skill issue’ from ya. :/