The F-4S and F-4J were extremely good dogfighters for a long while, however, i believe that the two variants have over time become much less desirable. Currently they are at 12.0 with…
-An extremely sensitive radar which falls apart at any resemblance of ground or chaff
-Aim-9H missiles, which dissapear at even a single flare
-Only 60 total chaff and flares, which is nowhere near enough to survive at its BR
-A horrendous turn rate, meaning an overshoot or missing a head on shot is certain doom
-Lack of a built in gun pod, meaning added weight.
The two are also fighting a few powerful enemis at the BR such as
-extremely potent R-24s and R-27s from MIG-MLs and SU-27s
-Its literal successor of the F-14, making the F-4s high altitude capacity nill
-Mirage F1C and 2000 with the extremely pwoerful magic 2s
-F-18s which outdo it in range, maneuverability, and speed all with better missiles, radar, and a built in gun
-Very likely uptiers to 12.7 and 12.3, with much more horrifying enemies to fight
However, the F-4S and F-4J have a reputation for a few good characteristics as well
-The F-4S has a HMD, which allows more versatility
-They both hold AIM-7Fs, which are powerful missiles for its BR, however, are still dragged down by the poor performance of the F-4 radar
-Decent straight-line speed, allowing it to attempt to run in and out of combat
OVERALL, the F-4S and F-4J have their ups and downs, however i personally believe, and have heard other accounts that they are overtiered. So i am curious for community input.
Should the F-4S and F-4J be downtiered to 11.7 or 11.3, Are they simply powercrept from extreme BR compression, or do i and the others who i have asked just have an extreme skill issue
I know i missed a few points that could be made, and may be wrong on a few, but that is partially why im discussing it.
I’d wait for the radar stuff to be corrected, it’s pretty messed up right now. From what Ive heard both are solid jets, with F-4S being better
They’re still the two strongest 12.0s…
AIM-9H missiles are extremely good, there’s nothing wrong with them, they cant be kinematically dodged from a good shot so there’s no fear in launching them against unaware players
60 flares is enough, rather standard for its BR
It’s overperforming in sustained turn rate, not to mention it’s one of the best at its BR
The 20mm it gets doesn’t really change all that much
This is undertiered by 0.7 sooo
F-4’s radar is perfectly fine, good even.
Yeah guys lets put a slatted F-4 at 11.3, with PD radar, AIM-7Fs, AIM-9Hs, HMD, and a great RWR.
No. The F-4S/J are currently 0.3 BR under what they should be, if any Phantoms need to go down it’s the F-4M/K/F.3.
they are a tad bit undertiered, they are very good jets.
Not really, 60 flares AND chaff only gives it 30 of each if its balanced, which is not enough to last in the long run considering theyre used to lose Magic 2s, R-24s, and R-27s, and not complete standard as a handful of planes at that BR have 90 or so
Ive yet to see its turn rate save it in any scenario, being well outdone by most MIGs, mirages, and honestly almost everything that isnt a tomcat full sweep
The radar has a tendency to be completely unusable from low altitudes (<100m), and randomly lose target or need a good 3-4 seconds of holding on a target for a proper lock
I said 11.3 or 11.7, much more leaning towards 11.7 as, yes the HMD is helpful i suppose, and the missiles are good, but nowhere near comprable to the SU-27s and F-16s its currently fighting, which have all it has, just better.
The HMD isnt too useful, AIM-9Hs die frequently, AIM-7Fs rely on its poor radar, and the RWR genuinely does nothing
ive tried using them for a while, and out of the last good 20 games ive gotten maybe two kills with them compared to me getting atleast 1 kill per game with the AIM-7Fs, they just get distracted by flares super easily
Dont get me wrong the two of them are usable, but in my opinion severely underperforming, partially in part to the things listed, but i will agree that the radar is its biggest weight right now
So don’t take chaff, it’s worthless anyway
Oh dear the brick can’t be outturned by a turnfighter wooahhhh
I haven’t found that personally
11.7 is minimum 0.7 under what it should be
Launch them at better oppurtunities
Better than the F-4J F.3
Launch them against distracted targets
it is pretty useful considering its the only hope against R-24s, R-27s, and AIM-7s
simply just showing that it cant come enar the turn rate of other planes at its BR, which is the point of the phantom as its designed for high altitude BVR, which is unfortunately impossible in its current BR range due to F-14s, MIG-23MLs, F-16s, F-18s, etc.
launching them at 1.5km behind an enemy in the middle of a dogfight seems quite prime to me, ive yet to see a case where they havent just popped a single flare and the missile just goes straight into the ground
still doesnt change that it does the bare minimum to even exist
It doesn’t do anything, just multipath
you can still win
It’s one of the best 12.0 planes, and just like every other jet, it suffers from BR compression.
No. They are better than the arguably undertiered Mig-23MLD, and there’s no way they’re equal to the F-4E.
They’re also better than the British phantoms at the same BR.
Others need to go up.
The weakest of all the 12.0 Phantoms, the F-4J(UK) could potentially do with dropping down to 11.7. But, what is needed instead is for a lot of 12.3-14.0 to move up a stop or 2.
F-1C basically only has 2x MAGIC IIs. Its other weapons are extremely weak and the only other notable strength of the F-1Cs is the decent CM count.
M2K is good, but is already 12.7, so is fine.
Should be 12.7.
And a few 13.0s should be more like 13.3.
Now compare the F-4S to things that face it in uptiers. Let alone if you move it down in BR. That aircraft is very good and well placed at 12.0.
i will admit it can win fights, but usually this is only in a direct head on engagement, assuming the missile hits which is extremely unreliable with its poor radar performance at low altitudes, or if you have a direct rear lock, which is difficult to get, let alone easy to flare given the 9H is in use instead of the 7Fs
as far as i can tell, mostly you just agree that the BR is compressed, which i do honestly agree with, but the extreme number of 12.3 - 12.7 and even 13.0 uptiers it gets is also a bit much imo. as far as im concerned it should atleast not have a chance of needing to fight F-14s, given the F-4s role as a BVR high altitude fighter is made impossible with it
Maybe, but likewise, something like a Sea Harrier FRS1e, Mig-21, Jaguar, etc etc. Shouldnt have to face an F-4S. Especially with how potent of a base bomber they are as well.
Its better to move other things up rather than moving the F-4S down.
Though, that being said, F-14s are hardly a threat.
my issue with the F-14 isnt really that its a major threat, its that the F-4 is meant to be a high altitude fighter and, given the chance, its radar and speed let it perform really well at high altitude, but the F-14 completely prevents that since, well, 100km beats 60
IMO, a mixture of skill issues with compression issues.
I am well aware they suffer in Uptier.
But it won’t change that the F-4J/S is the strongest 12.0BR jet in this game.
Maybe fancy decompression on higher BR can be helpful?
massive skill issue with the radar, change its mode to PD if you have issues with it
and the gun pod, f4E is one of the only ones to get an internal gun
and 60 CM is plenty if you don’t waste them and I may have evidence of them having more than they currently do
how is a hard wing phantom (f4j) an extremely good dogfighter?
Freebird.
Both
