There is no winning with you, if you’re shown evidence of ХСЧКВ-34’s effectiveness (such as 2 times of K-5 or whatever the number was), you will pull up the fictional HSCHKPW brochure and say that I have to now prove that this element is not the same protection as model 34.
Then you’re shown how it’s 70% lighter and the elements in the render look like model 19 elements instead of 34. But you dismiss this without reason.
Then you’re shown several images of 50mm plate but either it still does not exist or its protection should be included in the ERA because again the fictional brochure says “Duplet 2-m complex”.
There is no winning. You can make up whatever you want without any source or reason and demand evidence for the most basic and obvious things.
It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion when you are arguing in bad faith and dismissing everything you’re presented with.
While visually yes, you can’t say it is rubber as it appears a steel-like material, and you can’t really gauge thickness reliably.
Again, according to that patent, the material in question should be of dampener qualities (e.g. rubber), but using soft steel not in, say, APC/IFV armor but MBT armor is a hot take that should be also proved.
Using a comparison of two ERAs for tuning purposes, where the manufacturer deliberately understates the other’s performance?
How would you feel about using Russian tests that claim the K-5 and Nozh demonstrated equal effectiveness? I think it would immediately be called “biased.”
Even the manufacturer doesn’t think so. Here’s from the Kharkiv plant’s website. Translation:
“Additional armor and ERA increase the tank’s frontal armor resistance by 1.6 times that of KE.” In this case, the figure is for the T-72A.
340mm of base armor * 0.6 = 204mm. This 204mm includes the HSChKV, two covers above and below it, and a welded plate of about 50mm.
So, the HSChKV-34 + 60-80mm of steel gives 204mm. According to the Mikrotek brochure, the Duplet is 12.5% better. That’s 230mm total.
In the game, we have 292mm.
It turns out even the manufacturer doesn’t claim these insane numbers anywhere.
Could the problem be that too many primary sources claim lower protection?
Or has a malicious manufacturer deliberately understated the figures?
Again you have ignored the 50mm plate and why we should consider HSCHKPW and ХСЧКВ-34 as same, but I will reply to what you did respond to.
I have already told you that exaggerations should not be considered, for example, I don’t believe 90% of BM42 is a realistic value. But it is the official stated value by the manufacturer and academic reports. It should be considered as much as if not even more than the values of the fictional element. As we saw in tests, Duplet reduces BM42 by 78%. Here are my calculations if you missed them: Was the OPLOT-M armor supposed to be like this? - #35 by ARC_Convoy_77
You also claimed that the test footage matches in game performance; but it does not. In game, BM42 at 100m always penetrates the first steel plate of the base armour and sometimes it goes to the middle steel plate, but in the footage it was stopped on the first plate, it did not penetrate this plate, I recreated this here: The BM Oplot-T Is... Concerning - #57 by ARC_Convoy_77
These numbers are for Nizh module, not Duplet, it only has a single layer of ERA tiles and presumably a steel plate beneath it from the diagram. In game we don’t have a nizh module.
You yourself claim this brochure has incorrect data. Why should we not assume that it has exaggerated the values of Nizh in comparison to duplet in order to sell modernization programs like it has exaggerated the values in comparison to Relikt and K-5?
Additionally we don’t know the values of the steel plate and covers used in this module, you have assumed this to be 80-90mm but there is no basis for this assumption, just guesses. The website does not even state which ERA element is used in this modernization, ХСЧКВ-34, 19?
Please try to understand that the protection values in game are not realistic. 3BM42’s penetration was reduced to 120mm (60mm on normal) from 550mm (in-game value for 60 degree angle at 100m.)
Purely based on the real life tests against BM42, Duplet, including covers and dampeners, should stop 430mm of kinetic penetration. In game, covers are not modelled and protection is included in the ERA tiles, the dampeners are modelled as 10mm RHA between two ERA elements. We can say this provides 20-25mm of extra protection since its angled at 68 degrees. this gives us 405mm of protection provided by the elements and covers, which are modelled as just the elements in game. so Each Duplet tile should give around 200mm protection against Kinetic rounds.
I know you have also stated that 50mm plate on the should reduce the penetration of the second layer of ERA in the hull. This is unlikely, since there is an air gap between the plate and the element, plus the ERA does not have to penetrate the whole 50mm of armour because the projectile is already penetrating the armour when the ERA is triggered, so after hitting the projectile in the air gap, it does not have to defeat a 50mm plate to reach the projectile.
Here I have created a visualization of the UFP armour with accurately measured lengths and spaces according to blueprints and ERA dimensions.
See how only the last two shaped charges have to penetrate armour more than ~15mm. The effectiveness is reduced a little bit, two of the 7 shaped charges are facing more armour than they would in the first layer, I cannot make precise guesses but if we assume that the last two shaped charges are completely unable to affect the projectile, it would be a ~28.6% reduction in effectiveness (2/7*100). This is an exaggerated reduction because these charges will still have an effect on the projectile. Thus the Duplet module armour should be increased in comparison to the turret duplet.
Laslty, Even if you disagree with this analysis, please think about supporting the addition of the 50mm plate, whose existence has been proved through the available blueprint drawing. This RHA value being added to the ERA effectiveness unnecessarily nerfs the tank as when the ERA is detonated, the RHA value also disappears, no other vehicle in game features RHA degredation, and adding it to BM Oplot only is an unfair nerf to the tank.
Here is the accurate visualization I made of the UFP armour without the projectile in case someone wants to use it:
Well at first it was obvious from factory images that there is such a plate. But recently, Andret Bt (guy who runs btvt.info) posted a blueprint image of the duplet module used on BM Oplot tanks, this 50mm plate between the two ERA layers can be confirmed in this blueprint. I don’t want to re-post that image due to its unclear classification, although I have posted it in the forums before. I will probably delete my old post with this image just to be safe.
ERA bricks are specifically designed not to chain detonate. They usually have very high activation requirements energy wise so that way they dont trigger on low caliber weapons or fragmentation or such.
The mention of ERA groupings in this forum was because stacked bricks where the protection values should have been 280 due to two ERA tiles encountering the projectile, were combined into one model where the protection values stated were the same as a single tile of ERA, I think it is ok to group some tiles together, but when they are layered, the effective protection should be multiplied by the number of tiles in the layer.
I tried this approach. He replied in a manner that tile would fuse and jets from Nizh would be much quicker than the entirety of projectile going through the dampener/steel plate, thus only like 2 knives would effectively influence the projectile, with the rest loosing most if not all energy to going through the dampener.
Still fairly weird provided the supersonic projectile would pretty much be in second layer ERA cavity, like idk, 20% of it, and the fact that Nizh has to go through dampener to reach said projectile is weird to say the least, as at the moment other knives detonate, even with a milisecond error from each other, projectile doesn’t stop in dampener saying “hey, I’ll stop here and you gonna go through dampener to cut me”.
Not sure at which speed the jet from knives is released, but given the KE projectile in question would remain to be supersonic even after contacting first layer of ERA and cover, weird to assume second layer has to go through whole thing and loose 80% of its capabilities.
Again, also weird to assume why would dampener be made of RHA and 50mm thick. I’ve seen statements on RU forum like “second layer would fuse anyway even if there was 50mm HHRHA plate”, but again, if it is some rubber, then why 30mm, and not like 5-10 as it would fuse anyway? Dumb engineers at Mikrotek somehow decided to waste materials like extra dampener to divide both layers even though both would fuse anyway, and also reducing second layer of Nizh, because the sturdier and thicker the dampener, the weaker is the effect from second layer.
Guess I should work at Mikrotek at this rate to fix such issue with wasting materials on dampener and reducing effect from second layer, as stating “but CE protection is the goal” is somewhat wild as having a thick rubber/soft steel dampener is weird as it would not have any influence on effectiveness against KE/CE projectiles and Hexogen being sensitive enough (reading wiki RDX has low shock/friction sensitivity, but guess “experts” around here know better) to fuse regardless of how much armor is out there, unless it is like 100mm.
I disagree with your assessment of the angle. It’s much more acute. About 70 degrees, maybe 75.
The data there is incorrect only for other ERAs. It’s obviously created for advertising purposes, or it’s unclear where it came from. For example, at the time this table was created, Ukraine couldn’t have had the Relic for testing, meaning the data was simply made up for some reason.
The Blazer is no longer found anywhere, and they couldn’t have had it either, meaning they were using some old data.
I have no reason to doubt the ratio of protection between the Duplet and the Nizh, especially since all other sources confirm this.
19 Never used in UFP. Your knowledge of the subject is very superficial, which leads to misunderstandings.
Do you have data that the 3BM42 should penetrate 550mm?
I’m simply astounded. You have no knowledge of the matter, no sources, yet you looked it up online and are telling me what’s wrong with the game. And you’re even citing outlandish figures.
In the game, the 3BM42 penetrates 524mm at 60 degrees at 100m. Where’s the 120mm less?
These two do not work because the projectile breaks them on impact before they can work.
With such calculations in mind, the default Nizh complex would be nearly useless.
As you stated before, Nizh complex is 15mm front + 50mm back plating (there is also some plate between Nizh insert and add-on armor, say 5mm), thus resulting in approximately 70mm of RHA (even though it would rather be HHRHA with 1.3x efficency).
With that in mind, these 70mm are @ 68° angle, thus resulting in 186mm of LoS armor.
And again, according to previous calculations, 204mm LoS protection for whole thing, 186mm of which are from extra plating, which results in…
18mm KE protection from insert itself?
Yeah, it does align with Nizh insert hollow-charge penetration values you can calculate via your approach, but at this point one question arises:
What’s the point of Nizh if it can stop only a couple dozen mm of KE penetration and its CE protection is almost equal to that of K-1?
And with that in mind, try to calculate insert efficency in Duplet this time.
Numbers don’t align with such train of thinking, do they?
Well as you can see in the visualization, when the ERA fuses, the penetrator is affected by a total of 4 charges if we disregard the first one. All 4 of these charges are going through either 0 or 15ish mm of steel. Only the last two jets are going through more steel. The ERA does not fuse before the dampener has been penetrated, the argument that the APFSDS is not fast enough does not really make sense cause even if we say that it is paused in time, still, only two charges loose effectiveness compared to the first tile.
Don’t you think the side duplet era is underperforming? Even though it has the same stats as relikt, it doesn’t behave like it (interfering with the trajectory of the rod). Inaccuracy?
Sure, but you forgot to calculate how much do these knives pen, and something tells me they shouldn’t even leave a proper scratch on projectile with what Ralin states for knives hollow-charge effect.
Duplet is mounted on the ERA block at about 60 degrees, not 70 or 75, it is fired upon by BM42 at an angle where the projectile encounters the ERA block at almost 0 degrees horizontally. I don’t have access to tools to check it right now.
Other sources such as?
You can try to insult me all you want. Just because I got the values of BM42 wrong doesn’t mean my assessment is completely wrong.
I don’t have 24/7 access to a computer so I looked online for penetration figures of BM42 in game, I found the wrong one.
Even with 524mm, the penetration reduction is ~404mm of BM42 by Duplet.
60mm on the normal. At approximately 60 degrees. Not 70 or 75, you can clearly see the angle it’s fired upon in the tests.
Minus the 10mm rha dampener in game, the tiles should give around 190mm protection each in game.
This does not matter since it also happens on the first tile. We are comparing the effectiveness of the second layer to the first layer.
The main reason Nizh/Duplet works is because it deforms the projectile and changes it’s trajectory; it almost never cuts it unless it’s a very old projectile of steel. The deformed projectile is unable to effectively penetrate the base armour.
I literally did not ask about the penetration but ok. Why do you refuse to support the addition of the 50mm plate even if you want to subtract its values from the ERA tiles?
You’re forgetting that the APFSDS is better at penetrating sloped armor, and your calculations are incorrect. 204mm is a normalized value. In fact, against the APFSDS at a 68-degree angle, it would be greater.
