The AIM-54 Phoenix missile - Technology, History and Performance

NCTR is also the definition for multiple different methods (or combination of multiple said methods) at target recognition.

NCTR can be done by JEM (Jet engine modulation), optical determination (such as seen with IIR seekers like the IRIS-T, which holds a database of known adversary aircrafts to compare to), SAR imaging, unintentional modulation on pulse based specific emitters, etc…

Its obviously impossible for the 54C’s NCTR to be as advanced as something like an F-15 or F-16’s, but dubious that its “impossible” as claimed by some, particularly considering the timeframe.

Also, pretty sure regarding the AIM-120 that its capable of identifying/targeting helicopters via the main rotor’s doppler shift, which is in itself similar to JEM based NCTR, but I’m not 100% sure of that fact, I just seem to remember having read it somewhere, so take it with a grain of salt.

I’ve seen that NCTR was VERY unreliable even today (or at least in the 2010’s). I’ve seen that only 25/30% of time the target was correctly recognised.
That’s why NATO needed visual recognision of an ennemy airplane before firing anything toward them to reduce blue on blue fire.
Now with modern sensor sutch as EOTS, there’s not this problem anymore (probably)

Back to the topic, do you thing a missile introduced in the mid 80’s would have any kind of realiable NCTR?
Because i feel like not and it was more niche than anything.

And what would be the impact on War thunder?

  • The missile will have to know at what target the plane is shooting at to ajust it’s NCTR. In what ways could the F-14 reliably know what was in front of him to give the missile the target signature.
  • Even if they implement it, with mixed battle , there’s all kind of airplane fighting each other so the chance of shooting down a teammate (even at 100% reliable NCTR) would not be 0
  • If they implement reliability issues, then the missile can think that the target it locked doesnt have the same signature as the target it’s supposed to lock (even if it is) and just detonate prematurally or goes straigh to the ground while stopping the locking.

No, thats made up nonsense. It was used in combat. F15C being the only one having it on the coalition was the reason they were the only ones allowed to do BVR over IRAQ without AWACS authorization.

You can see the criteria of BVR shots when there’s a lack of IFF

Mode 1: military only; provides 2-digit octal (6 bit) “mission code” that identifies the aircraft type or mission
Mode 4: military only; provides a 3-pulse reply, delay is based on the encrypted challenge

I don’t think JEM only. F15C’s were able to lock on helis and shoot one with a sparrow. Then you have later on where the F15 locked the blackhawk at 60N.M and go the kill with the amraam. If NCTR got were able to detect specifically the nationality of the heli through the JEM then the kill wouldn’t have happened. In any case it would HOJ.

Personally what MIG23 says makes sense.

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Yeah target size makes the most sense, though I’d question what the point of the tech would even be for?

Would it just not lock a ‘wrong’ target? Or was it used for guidance values?

My best guess would be that it is an extra means of countermeasure/clutter rejection, as a cloud of chaff or surface return would not be the same as an aircraft or AShM.

It may also be to improve the missiles ability at retaining targetting of the initial target it was launched at instead of switching lock.

We know for a fact that many of the improvements to the 54C’s seeker (and warhead/fuze) was for “expanded capabilities against electronic countermeasures, high altitude targets, maneuvering targets very low altitude encounters and clustered targets.”

Spoiler

Making sure the missile can identify the appropriate target in cluttered environments such as very low altitude intercepts or areas in which large numbers of targets are clustered seems to be (in my opinion at least) one of the most logical reasons for a type of NCTR to be used.

Depending on how accurate the NCTR was as well, granted as I stated before, it was most likely incapable of some of the more advanced NCTR techniques such as JEM seen on F-15/F-16’s, its possible NCTR may have been used as an additional safety feature to prevent potential blue on blue incidents, seeing as from my understanding the F-14’s AWG-9 did not have NCTR, though the F-14D’s APG-71 should and the aircraft began development back around 1984, so it may have also been a feature meant to be paired with the APG-71 as well.

I thought about it some more and I dont think the NASA document proves theres a bug necessarily with the pre-launch gimbal limit of the AIM-54.
What is usually referred to as “lofting” is technically referred to as “trajectory shaping” in missiles, whereas the missile flies an optimized trajectory, not a simple predetermines flight angle. Particularly in the case of missiles with larger cross sectional areas to their motor and longer burn times such as the AIM-54, there is a larger advantage gained when flying at high altitude than smaller missiles with shorter burn times, as detailed by this equation:

Spoiler

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Source

This is why loft angle would have such an effect on actual kinematic performance of the missile, and iirc, the AIM-54 is meant to aggressively climb once fired, particularly when fired against a very long range target.

This brings me to my reasoning as to why the NASA paper doesnt really prove anything necessarily. We have no idea in what method the AIM-54 used by NASA is launched, as the missile body was used due to the achievable speeds and altitudes it operates at, and it therefore carried test payloads, the warhead section, and likely the radar guidance section were likely removed, as I doubt NASA was firing the missile with a radar lock on a target with the missile guiding itself towards said target. Therefore, the missile was more likely used as a rocket, making manual lofting a necessity, as the missiles typical trajectory shaping profile was likely not being used.

I could be completely wrong on this point though, as I do not know the exact method in which they employed the AIM-54 for their experiments. I do think that this is the most logical reason behind the drastic difference in performance based solely on the launch angle of the missile by NASA, and also explains the discrepancy in stated max speed of the AIM-54 and those stated by NASA, as it was likely more used in a parabolic trajectory as a sort of dumb fire rocket with an experimental payload, rather than an advanced guided missile with trajectory shaping for optimizing intercept probability.

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Yeah as far I I know those were completely unguided ballistic tests or just programmed trajectories

But we do know it’s lofting profile at ~Max range from other sources

Do we? Afaik, we know the max alt achieved by the missile launched considering launch parameters and target parameters, that doesn’t actually tell us what the loft profile is though.

Whats crazy about this thread is that you will never see the Russian Scab Rocketeers in a thread about Russian Missiles post this much misinformation or BS they make up. Look at all the information we have to post in this thread about the Phoenix to combat the lame Russian players who want to make sure NATO equipment remains broken or dead on arrival.

Where is the R-27ER post about its overperformance? Remember when the Aim7 was supposedly overperforming and the scabs rushed to the Aim-7 post to make sure it was nerfed? Now it underperforms by a large margin. The R-27ER meanwhile is the most free kill in WT.

Where is the R-27Er post Mig-29m? Where are your posts about it overperforming? Oh wait…you dont do that to Russian tech/vehicles…

R-27ER is performing according to all current data. As is the AIM-7F. We’ve bug reported the AIM-54 as it’s currently underperforming.

I don’t know where you got the notion that anything you said was true, but the best course of action is to just bug report it yourself if you’ve got some valid source and testing to prove it.

im pretty sure all the aim7s in the game except for the aim7m are overperforming but this is due to gajin wanting there seeker heads to be all of the same type as if they changed the seeker it would nerf all those missiles

Well, if they did model it correctly we’d see a simultaneous buff and nerf to radar missiles seekers in a variety of areas, but more noticeably the Russian seekers would outperform the American ones at low altitude engagements (99% of the engagements in-game right now)… So the realism they’re crying for is actually detrimental to them.

Sparrow F and M are underperforming in the seeker department aswell. (M having same seeker range as F). The ability of guiding on the main HPRF waveform instead of a secondary CW. This means longer seeker range(F and M, and M>F range), and M using the FM HPRF thus knowing range and doppler to form a range-doppler map(i think F does know range aswell) and especially no RWR warning (applicable for F16C/F14s(it can do CW and HPRF), F15/F18).

I really want to see the crying when only 1 country can launch a missile without giving a warning when everybody else does…

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wouldnt a frequency change occur? I cant speak much on missiles guided by high prf doppler but for pulse missiles like the R530, IRL theyd still give a launch warning because the RWR would recognize a sudden frequency change which occurs when the missile is fired

Or is there actual documentation saying “yeah RWRs aint got a clue”

ill take balance over realism any day

No. Radars don’t change the carrier frequency to launch(only f15 and f18 change the PRF if they are in MPRF to HPRF). What other radars do is add a separate illuminator, for a CW signal. F16C has a PDI(hprf waveform). The 530F guided on the F1’s main radar signal if I’m not mistaken which is LPRF(“PULSE”) and the 530D on a CW. Which is why the M2000 has a CW illuminator

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Would we not know that we are locked though?
Would FOX-3s negate most of this anyway?

Just locked.

Same way Mig 29s negate F4Es, 9Ms negate 9Js, one is more modern and came later than another. This is from Mid 70s till Amraam came around in 91’. You are comparing tech with more than decade in difference since IOC.

Not what I’m getting at. If you’re guiding an AMRAAM in Yes there will be even less notice in the first place than if they model the SARH on CWI waveform as you said.

Especially against an opponent with R-27ER… But then we’re basically back to war thunder before RWR.

An aim-7 launch on hprf is going to give the target’s RWR:

  • Radar frequency data (ident)

  • Lock warning

  • Possibly some more

It only really lacks the CW lamp, you’d still know you’ve been hard locked

yeah

yep.

AIM7 F and M are the only ones that are able to guide in this waveform. R27R/ER depends on a separate CW illuminator. Thus a missile launch/guidance warning.

The R27 is also not really correctly modelled in terms of guidance. It should have sort of adaptive PN, which we know how they are derived and the Inertial navigation is also fantasy. Right at launch the seeker head is locked into the direction where the target will be when the R27 reaches X(normally 25km) distance from the target and switches from I.N, locks the target and continues in SAHR.
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2023-11-11

At the phase of acquisition, the target must be in a 12° cone and ± 150m/s in speed. This would causes problem. Say you fire at a plane left 30° offset with I.N. ~50-60km. The missile will normally lead to point of interception, with the antenna pointing where the target will be at 25km from the missile. In this case (for example any value) 15° to the left from the nose. IF the target changes course to 60° the the right while the R27 is still in I.N, the missile will lead to that new direction, the target will be now the the missile’s right! But the antenna is pointing 15° to the LEFT! Now either the missile is trashed or needs to make the antenna point the target, which may kill the missile cinematically. I think the latter happens. which is why there’s a 4-5x increase in the proportional navigation(this is the adaptive part) in the formula during acquisition. Now here, the last info the missile got was that target was at a certain radial from it. But it looks for signals in the antenna cone ± 150m/s. And the target may have maneuvered or be close to the beam.
A.-target’s maneuvered and speed is out of ±150m/s zone
B. -may lock to clutter(don’t think I remember seeing target size being a condition somewhere) or chaff.

You are making shit up out of thin air without knowing how the signals differ or what they do. Besides CW, the AIM7 guides on the FM’d HPRF waveform, which is the same signal some radars use to track. HPRF STT lock signal == homing signal. Older radar’s like the phantom F4E used LPRF for tracking, but the used a CW for missile guidance coming from an illuminator. This illuminator turned on exactly when the missile got launched, and an RWR seeing this signal can tell there’s something in that direction providing guidance for a missile.

You only get this

  • Radar frequency data (ident)
  • Lock warning

There’s not more.

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