And Russia didn’t. Until R-77-1 came in active service (R-77 never even was in active service) and R-27 anyway is still often carried in patrol mission. And R-77-1 (RVV-SD) advertising range is 110 km.
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if there’s anyone trying desperately to be right, its you Mr. I modify my assumption of rocket motor sizes to fit my argument and refuse state sources in favor of enthusiast blogs because doing so proves me right.
The burden of proof via official sources is on you, not me.
https://ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/raketa_rvv-ae.html
https://ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/raketa_rvv-sd.html
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Math that so far has yet to be shown false, aligns with performances of other missiles per the testing done in-game. Information from enthusiast blogs that aligns better with what the math shows and against state media that has been wrong many times in the past.
Rosoboronexport claims a range of 75km for the R-27R1. It states nearly the same information of +/- 10km separation and hitting a target traveling some ~3500 km/h. Yet, in-game has a stated launch range of approx. 55km.
In real life, the R-27R1 has a head-on range under these conditions of a practical 35km.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/955829235493273680/1142160486989832303/image.png
We did the testing, the R-27R1 performs as it should in-game.
I suspect the 80km stated range is nowhere near the real practical range, and certainly not the max. The same goes for everything else Rosoboronexport has stated and that’s when it’s accurate to begin with. We need the context of the launch parameters as everyone else has said. While we wait for such data to be come public, the napkin math is the best we got.
You can see against what target’s speed and carrier’s speed this chart is for. Is it maximum possible speeds of target and carrier? Of course not. If you hate ROE so much, you always can check developers sites (KTRV).
https://ktrv.ru/production/voennaya_produktsiya/rakety_klassa_-vozdukh-vozdukh/rakety_r-27r1-_r-27er1.html
50-60/60-62.5 km against fighter (R/ER)
75/90-100 km against some specific targets (R/ER)
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And there you can see the launch range of 50-60km stated for a fighter sized target. This does not match the actual performance envelope shown from the manuals. It is propaganda, without context.
It’s just maximum possible range in best conditions. Chart isn’t for best conditions. Target doesn’t even have at least 1000 km/h in chart.
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The manual assumes much lower speeds than the theoretical max from the supplier, and this argument actually hurts your case rather than helps it, as you claim they are overclaiming on the R-27R1 but underclaiming on the R-77 for whatever weird propaganda reason you’re making up to assure yourself you’re right xD
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Never believe a single word from south asian defense forum/sites. Those sites are literally filled with overly nationalist fools.
I don’t see how it harms my argument, it shows how the max range is not even all that relevant. I’m going to admit as much right now. This doesn’t change the fact that it could very well exceed 80km and Rosoboronexport has not always been an accurate source.
That leaves us with what we’ve stated already… you call it napkin math… okay? Does that make it any less relevant to the conversation? I’d rather try to make real comparisons with better known and visible data than just believe something arbitrary stated like “20+ miles” or “80km”.
@MythicPi So someone has shared with me a book, inside it are some graphs for missile ranges. I compared them and found that all of the graphs match the stated ranges in diagrams or manuals (first hand sources). Since I lack one for the R-77 I cannot directly compare but the accuracy for the rest is on par, I can only presume the R-77 is also accurate.
It also matches the napkin math and other stuff we’ve inferred based on the current public knowledge.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/955829235493273680/1142180914147901570/image.png
The maximum stated range on the chart is 80km, but the range exceeds that and hits a wall of what I assume to be the battery life limit. To me this suggests a practical maximum range of 80km due to battery life, but kinematic range of closer to 100km at those altitudes.
Does warthunder take account of battery life? If not we are most likely going to get R77 with 100km range
Yes. All missiles have a maximum flight time programmed, after which they self destruct.
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That means 80Km would be the range?
The R-77 should have 100km distance with battery life also considered. The vertical line where it stops traveling further is caused by battery life.
And yes, war thunder models it as “WorkTime” in the missile file, it just stops and explodes once that determined guidance time has passed. For the AIM-9G for example it is 60s. For the AIM-120 we presume it is around 80. For the AIM-54 it is 160 seconds iirc.
Except barring your book, which you havent linked or quoted, just shown a drawing from and told us matched other manuals, you still dont have a primary source, and Rosboronexport/KTRV, both of which are much closer to, primary sources, both state a max of 80km range for the missile, along with other information your graph does not provide. So up til now, you have “trust me bro” (despite having tried to pass off a fake source as real in this argument already), a hand drawing with hyper limited information from an unstated secondary source.
Rereading your napkin math assumption also just makes things worse, since you do some interesting mental gymnastics regarding the R-77’s superiority such as:
[quote=“MiG_23M, post:76, topic:2584”]
Both accelerate approximately 4 mach over launch speed.[/quote]
Which would indicate the AIM-120A reaches similar speeds in a shorter period of time.
This directly contradicts your earlier assumptions, as the sustain portion of the motor burn does not accelerate the missile, but instead sustains its speed (the clue is the word sustain). Which means by your own stated sources, the AIM-120 reaches similar speeds in shorter time and sustains its speed via motor burn for longer.
The R-77 has extremely similar dimensions to the AIM-7M (same diameter, similar lengths), and barring the high supersonic drag advantage of lattice fins over conventional ones, suffers other major drag penalties in compairisons, such as the substantially shorter motor burn (4.5-6s according to you vs 15.5s for the AIM-7M and 6-8s for the AIM-120A).
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Its dubious to believe that a missile with very similar size to an AIM-7M (200mm diameter, 3.6/3.66M (R-77 vs AIM-7M), and an arguably worse drag profile (better fins for high supersonic speeds, 1/3 the motor burn time significantly impacting drag) would so handedly outperform the AIM-7 in terms of range, with the AIM-7M’s stated max range of 70km, vs the R-77’s stated 80km being possible via advances in rocket motor technology and guidance, but not a wopping 100km+ range you like to state, which would be an almost 43% increase in range.
Your entire analysis basicly boils down to “well the R-77 is better straight-line, its also better at higher alts because drag doesnt matter as much at higher alts, and its also better at lower alts (where drag matters more) cuz I said so, it pulls more, it has a longer seeker duration, its basicly the second coming of jesus as a missile!”
Your entire analysis is just non-stop mental gymnastics that comes to the totally suprising conclusion that the R-77 is just better in every way to the AMRAAM, which is basicly a garbage missile cuz its worse than a SARH from a decade earlier made by the soviets, and offers no advantage besides its seeker, over a SARH also made a decade earlier by the US, which could totally have been easily upgraded with said seeker if that was really all the AIM-120A had over the AIM-7M.
Except we know its not, seeing as the only available document from the US we have publicly available shows the AIM-120A matches the AIM-7’s range in frontal shots, and exceeds it using command inertial guidance, all while being a smaller missile, allowing for more to be carried as well.
You also state wonderfully questionnable things like:
Stating that Rosoboronexport OVERCLAIMS the R-27R1 range by a wopping 40km and that the provided numbers by KTRV are propaganda, but for whatever reason underclaims the R-77 range by 20km+??? That completely illogical as an assumption.
Or:
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They didnt “abandon” the R-27ER quickly, its still in use and commonly seen ALONGSIDE the R-77 on their top of the line Su-35!!!
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The reverse of that is true as well! You think the Americans would wait 6 years to develop a match to the RVV-AE despite the fact that it was initially developped for export customers and likely fell into US hands within the first year of its existence???
Back to technical points:
Theres also just the fact of looking at other long range air to air missile developments, particularly Russian and Chinese ones, as both nations have used the R-77, and wouldnt you know, neither of them use lattice fins on any long range air to air missiles, and certainly not on hypersonic missiles, with the R-37M, PL-12, PL-15, PL-21, and most damningly, the Russian R-77M/ME currently under development with conventional fins!!!
Which is not a great look for your beloved lattice fins when its considered that one of the primary advantage of lattice fins is packing, which is important on an aircraft like the Su-57 which may carry missiles internally!
All in all, you’ve made questionnable assumptions, bent facts to suit your tastes by revising your assumptions about the R-77 and AIM-120A to better suit your narrative, made just outright laughable leaps in logic, refuse to take the closest thing to publicly available sources for either missiles we have, effectively claiming counter-propaganda(???) with regards to the R-77 while just ignoring the AIM-120 one since it didnt suit your narrative, and posted dubious sources which corroborate your views and tried to pass them off as legitimate! (As seen with ur indian defense forum graph, wouldnt be the first time you tried to pass something off as a legitimate source when it wasnt either.)
You even tried wording your post regarding your most recent “source” , an undisclosed book, in a eay for it to be easily misinterpreted as a primary source, which you claim got the other missiles (with publicly available figures) right, and therefore MUST be getting the R-77 (with no publicly available figures besides the Rosoboronexport/KTRV ones) wrong???
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I’m glad you made the long post, I’ve discovered the book I was referring to actually referenced Vympel’s own export catalogue. They claim 100km range in there, too.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1012063753073864734/1142182939849928724/image.png
Right, so original claims for the missiles range was 100km, and its since been dropped to 80km by thr current companies in charge of selling thr missile, and your assumption is “I knew it! Reverse propaganda from Rosobornonexport/KTRV!”
If ANYTHING is propaganda, its those figures.
Im done arguing this, I can’t keep up with your mental gymnastics anymore.
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The original R-77 didn’t properly enter service with the Russian forces, the RVV-AE is an export model. Likely the 80km is reduced range for export, and later both were replaced by the R-77-1 proper and its’ export model with 110km range stated. It’s also possible the R-77-1 has more than 110km range for Russian service, but we also only know the export RVV-SD stated range.
Spoiler
Regarding your statements about my “napkin math” and the AIM-120’s thrust profile, the sustainer is essential to reach higher speeds and then maintain them for whatever time it can. At lower altitudes the booster will not be reaching mach 4 as the R-77s can. This is reflected in the relevant charts.
So no, this doesn’t contradict my earlier “assumptions”. The boost-sustain profile does allow for you to sustain the speeds of the initial boost, but at a certain point drag is much reduced and the sustainer can actually allow for higher top speeds. For the AIM-120 it seems that the top speed of mach 4 is only achievable in the same manner as the R-27ER’s top speed is only achievable. (At very high altitude and initial launch speeds). The R-77 is still the winner here, having a similar thrust profile to the AIM-120C-5 and lower drag grid fins for such high supersonic speeds.
Yes, you’re correct the R-77 is more similar to the AIM-7M in size but with much reduced electronics size, different warhead, tail guidance section instead of wings. It has more modern higher ISP propellant and a better burn profile. Now let me remind you that the AIM-7M has 100km range.
The R-77 is far from the second coming of Jesus, I think that could be quite an offensive statement to some… The R-77 is not better at lower altitudes where the aircraft would be unable to launch above mach 1.3 because wave drag could significantly impact the performance of the missile immediately. This is evident by the fact that it has some 33% less range than R-27ER at 1km altitude seemingly. The AIM-120A wouldn’t be any better, but as altitude increases the R-77’s advantages stack on.
You’ve read my assessments wrong, I think the AIM-120A in a 1v1 BVR situation would not be the breadwinner for engaging an aircraft equipped with the R-27ER. The R-27ER can out-range the AIM-120A and still give the launcher time to evade the AMRAAM. That is all. The fact that you can go full cold and turn around to launch another AMRAAM as the target gets closer kind of nullifies the advantages of the R-27ER. I think it’s a fair match-up and we should see the AIM-120A soon. In fact, I’d advocate for letting the AIM-120A come to the game and give Russia no fox-3 at all until a few updates (6-9 months) later.
Yes the export company overclaims the range of their missile. In no real world situation will it ever hit any target at 75km. No modern airforce is that idiotic that they’d allow such a thing to happen. The missile would be wasted with little to no remaining energy. Unlike the R-77 which seemingly has plenty of energy at the altitudes where it can hit 100km but fails to due to battery life.
They abandoned the R-27ER. It’s still used in training, but when you have massive stocks of things you tend to continue using them as necessary. There was a Harrier equipped with an AIM-120A/B in 2022. I seriously doubt them engaging anything in Syria requires the advantages of the R-77. Using the cheaper old missile stock would be wise.
Lattice fins are well studied, what I’ve claimed is true. The fact that they’d moved to conventional tailfins likely suggests that the missile wants better drag near the end of a lofting trajectory and supports the theory that earlier R-77s did not loft, whereas the newer models likely use such trajectory shaping. For a missile that looks at almost doubling the range of the original R-77 and in a similar sized package… this would be more ideal to move to conventional fins. Grid-fins would be better suited for what I’d call the “brute force missile” designs of Soviet era Russia such as the R-27ER or early R-77.
Also,
If they were to think the legacy style tailfins were better than the grid-fins they’d likely also replace the export models grid fins but they didn’t. They didn’t replace the grid-fins on the ramjet proposal model either.
You could have asked for the book but you didn’t. Instead you just used the fact that I failed to properly cite it as ammo to attack me for whatever reason because… behold… my napkin math was right. The R-77 is a 100km range missile by all means.
TL;DR
The R-77 is a 100km range missile, bar the export RVV-AE which we still do not have solid data to go off of imo. The grid fins are advantageous for a missile that lacks a lofting trajectory and no public knowledge really suggests it has any kind of loft. It looks like Russia was looking more for time to target than peak range. The new R-77M has traditional fins as it is a similar sized missile looking to reach nearly double the range of the original R-77. This requires lofting, and the older style fins do not suffer wave drag between 0.8 and 1.3 mach. At final approach at such ranges the missile can be expected to drop to those speeds and they don’t want it falling out of the air.