I think it would be a pretty easy fix to have the two separate files and just change the guidance delay and all that. Would be a neat feature.
Would be a nice detail. Maybe it just never occurred to them with the Sparrow.
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You have to report it, it is like if you do not report stuff yourself they will never add it. Happened with a lot of features and neat things.
I doubt anyone wants to report it for the planes they play. Youd be hurting your own plane you main if your missile took an extra second to turn on motor when it could have used that one second to already be traveling towards whoever you’re locking onto.
RVV-AE (R-77 export designation) official export brochure states a maximum range of 80km: https://roe.ru/pdfs/pdf_4709.pdf
As for the AIM-120 (presumably the 120A), the only official document I can find with anything relating to range is this single slide from the below linked document indicating the increased range/engagement envelope of the AIM-120 (only name AIM-120 at the time as this is from 1989, 2 years before the AIM-120A was accepted into service) posted by a WT moderator on the old WT forums:
Department of Defense Appropriations for 1989: Chemical weapons and ... - United States. Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations. Subcommittee on Department of Defense - Google Books
Range estimates seem to vary wildly for the AIM-120A, and the above image doesn’t state an exact range either, but the above image indicates it exceeds that of the AIM-7M using command inertial guidance at least which is stated as a maximum of 70km.
I also haven’t really seen any official sources regarding motor burn times for either the AIM-120A or R-77, so I’m confused as to where all the previous motor burn times discussed as arguments for range of each missile came from. I’ve seen range estimates all over the internet ranging from >20 nautical miles (~37km) to >35NM (~65km) for the AIM-120A, but never any official sources with numbers regarding range or motor burn.
Also, id like to add that many sources online claim the R-77 has a 100km range. Thats an outright fabrication as evident by the official brochure regarding the missile, and considering its very similar dimensions to the AIM-7M I think its pretty reasonable to assume its motor doesnt particularly exceed the capabilities seen on the 7M by much. Id even ventute a guess that at any launch below supersonic speeds, the missile likely underperforms compared to the 7M rather significantly due to the drag from the waffle fins.
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The range of the AIM-7F/M is limited by the receiver, not kinematics. The extension in range is generally referred to as something made possible by the mid-course inertial guidance methodology of the AMRAAM. This is also what allows the R-27R/ER to travel as far as they do despite not actually being able to track the target (yet). The only time the R-77 would be able to achieve 100km kill is in an insanely high altitude and high speed scenario. The target would basically need to just unwittingly fly himself into the missile.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1141922952741396490/R-77.png
Obviously this chart is questionable at best, but highlights my point. No one is claiming 100km distance against a target below ~17km altitude and presumably at very high closure rate. 80km is a more practical distance for fighter sized targets as it is possible only at a altitude (per this chart) of around 15km.
At lower altitudes it seems the maximum practical range is less than 20km. The R-27ER will be the dominant Russian missile regardless of the fact that the R-77 is a fox-3 or has sufficient performance to out-range the AIM-120A/B.
Thats weird, you seemed to have missed the part where the Russian goverment doesnt claim 100km range at all, seeing as they claim an 80km max range on their official export brochure for the missile.
Not 80km+, not ~80km. Up to 80km. 80km max.
Considering they also have other “maximum” figures in their export document, such as max altitude of 25km, max target speed of 3600km/h I’m inclined to believe that what they mean by “up to 80km” for range is, yanno, up to 80km range against a non maneuvering target flying the optimal flight profile for it to intercept.
I think itd be a BIT weird if the official Russian export document got the max tange wrong by a whopping 25%… I’m sure your questionnable chart is a more reliable source tho
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That’s not the “Russian government”. It’s the Russian export industry’ Rosoboronexport. A secondary source at best, they only take procured weapons from the defense industry and export them elsewhere. The stated range of 80km is as meaningless as the Air Force saying the AMRAAM is “20+ miles” range.
NAVAIR doesn’t even have the correct weight for the AIM-120A/B. It’s all classified, so the public numbers may be over or understated.
Hughes themselves show a weight of 326 pounds for the AIM-120A. This is a primary source, and one that is backed up by other secondary sources for various places. We don’t have this kind of accurate information for the R-77 (yet). If Gaijin wants to use restricted Russian documents in the background to model the R-77 they’ll likely get a missile with a maximum range stated as 100km. Doesn’t mean it will reach there, same as the AIM-7F.
The sole state intermediary for Russian arms import/export. A state corporation. They have no reason to undersell their weapons max range. Seeing as its an export item, they are more likely inclined to overclaim, not underclaim. There’s no reason to believe the missile can exceed its publicly stated max range by a whopping 25%.
Trying to compare this to AMRAAM claimed range is idiotic as well. 20+ miles is highly ambiguous, and considering the previously shown procurement papers, as well as just basic logic, the idea that the AIM-120A cannot match, or more likely exceed the AIM-7M’s range is dubious at best. The R-77 on the other hand has a stated max range, along with other stated max figures (alt and target speed). Those are not ambiguous figures, they are stated maximums.
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There’s no reason to suggest that Rosboron needs to state a realistic range publicly at all. The R-77s range is going to depend highly on the circumstances as I’ve shown.
I hope you realize that “80km” figure means absolutely nothing without launch conditions
It means the maximum range the missile can achieve under ideal launch conditions…
Thats what “up to” means… its its limit
Come on guys, these are layups you’re missing, this is like, the most basic of basic reading comprehension
They gave you an engagement envelope. 0.3km min rear aspect, 80km max front aspect. Its REALLY not that hard
all they provided was “rear aspect” and “front aspect”. thats only part of the launch parameters required to know its performance.
We’re missing:
- Launching Aircraft Speed
- Launching Aircraft Altitude
- Target Aircraft Speed
- Target Aircraft Altitude
They provided both of these seeing as they stated the min/max alt of 0.02/25km and max target speed of 3600kph. They also state max vertical separation between launch aircraft and target of 10km.
Considering they state its literal engagement envelope, its pretty dang hard to understand why there’s anything ambiguous about it. I could entertain the idea that maybe if the target was flying at 3600kph 25km alt and the firing aircraft was flying at Mach Jesus at the same alt or something, it would theoretically be possible to exceed the stated max of 80km, but at that point why tf are we arguing about missile ranges?
If you can’t take the only official public source, from the Russians, regarding their missiles engagement envelope and want to nitpick about launch aircraft speed and altitude, there’s no point in even debating this at this point because you refuse the stated limits of the missile off your theoretical assumptions tailored to fit your world view.
The Russians historically provide launch conditions of missiles at 10km alt. So your point is widely off the mark here. Fasterboi is right. We need target alt/speed and launch aircraft alt/speed. Anything else is insufficient.
There’s a lot of ambiguity about this. You’re even assuming here that the 80km range could be at 25km.
Im assuming the stated max range of the missile within the stated altitude limits and stated target speed limits for a non-maneuvering shot is correct. You guys are the ones assuming things that have no hard evidence backing them.
Assuming max as “under ideal conditions” really isn’t making some major assumptions here…
There’s literally a chart lol
My assumption is that 80km max range is at optimal conditions, idk if thats at 25km, i just know that the stated max alt for the missiles targets
The chart you called “Questionnable at best” that doesnt match DirectSupport’s claim of “The Russians historically provide launch conditions of missiles at 10km alt” that only matches the actual official export paper in 1 factor, being the max alt of 25km?
