Switzerland subtree to save air german Bias

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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Irrelevant. The point is that these additions went to the nations that “needed them” the most at X point in time.

Swiss vehicles can go to the obvious tree that is closest to them. I’ll let you guess which one that is. Since you clearly fancy yourself as a detective.

Here, corrected it for you and I’m leaving you to answer which TT is currently the most in need of them. Hint: it starts with G.

You want people to get high BR german stuff to comment on them, I’ll happily accept a large donation of GE and GJN to that order.

Strawman much? I want people to actually have played the nations they’re talking about. When you’re commenting that Germany isn’t in need of something at X BR (in this case, Swiss additions that would only be relevant from 8.7 and up), I’d expect you to know how it actually performs, what it needs and what it doesn’t.

It’s not as if the Leopard 2 platform is one of the most opressive top BR contenders, surpassed only by literal swede bias.

Apart from the 2A7V/HU & 122s, all other Leopard 2 are basic as hell. Oh strong turret? Totally not shared by checks notes, basically 90% of top tier MBTs. A good shell? Must’ve missed that M829A2, Type 10, M338 etc exist. Good thermals? 1st gens. Good mobility? Man, Abramses called.

A 2A6 is no more oppressive than the M1A2.

In Air, the EF2000 early variants are; at worst, one or two updates in the future. Do you need more?

Now check which variant actually gets air-to-ground weapons, yea, Tranche 2 Block 10. Chances of that one being our first addition are extremely slim if F-16s & Gripens are anything to go by.

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Don’t argue with irrelevant points. Nobody who plays France wanted BeNeLux copypasta, and nobody who actually plays France wants dirty Leopard 2 variants to stink up the tree. The only people who thought the French tree needed copypasta were Gaijin.

Swiss Hunter was literally needed more in UK tree than German, too. Guess who has zero F&F CAS on a platform with flares at 9.7?

Incorrect. Swiss Mirage variants and F/A-18 variants are not needed in German tree. The homegrown swiss MBTs such as Pz 58, Pz 61 and Pz 68 are below the BR level you think Germany needs bolstering with. MOWAG’s later projects have literally nothing to do with Germany and deserve their own spotlight outside an already bloated tree, even if it’s a “minor euro/NATO aligned tree”.

Boy ain’t it great how that’s no longer the top German MBT anymore? Just sweep that under the rug, clearly not relevant.

Plus, ignoring the fact that out of literally every single MBT in terms of armor aside from the improved versions of the Leopard 2A5, that turret is the outright best in the entire game. CR2 is full of holes and has 1/3 of the front unarmored, M1A2 turret is the weakest of the strong nato turrets and can be penetrated by DM53 with only a slight angle. No other nation comes close to the 2A5/2A6 turret. Even trolly Russian turrets have to rely on ERA and volumetric to save them.

Please do tell me how the Type 10, Ariete, and Leclerc turrets are even in the same ballpark as the Leopard 2A5 turret.

Oh, just like the Swiss F/A-18 variants you demand? The ones that are quite literally A2A only? The updated Swiss F/A-18 variants with A2G armament are also unlikely to come to the game as the first addition, if you’d bother to do any research.

You don’t need them, you glutton. You just want them out of greed.

Edit:

and before I forget, you should learn what a logical fallacy is before accusing someone of it. Especially when you falsely give someone guff about a strawman when you start with Ad Hominem.

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Yeah, the Swiss F-18 might give them a top tier fighter, but probably not the top tier CAS they are after.

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Yes, it’s rather disappointing that they clamor for an aircraft mostly irrelevant to Germany, without even bothering to look into the capabilities it brings. German top BR CAS will have to wait for later EF2000 variants. But for air battles (the topic at hand here), Germany is guaranteed to be first in line for a brand new Gen 4.5 EuroCanard to replace the F-4F ICE.

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Yeah, Germany is just going to have to wait a little while. But Im think DA Typhoons or Tranche 1 Typhoons this Decemeber for top tier air, if they dont get Swiss F-18s.

Though I do think Switzerland is actually a fine Sub-TT for Germany.

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I don’t really agree with giving Germany a Swiss Sub-tree.

A fair number of Swiss modifications to French aircraft really should be in the French tree. And Germany doesn’t need more tanks around 7.7 to 9.0, where the Pz 58, 61 and 68 would probably be.

Personally, none of the Big 3 should get sub-trees. They’re already spoilt for choice.

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Eh… If Switzerland will keep the German quiet for an update or 2, then I think its worth it.

and out of all the nations Germany has been asking for, its the least worse.

So maybe France will miss out on a few export variants, but there are others. Heck Britain already missed out on the ultimate swiss export vehicle, doesnt get much worse than that.

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I think it will be Dutch

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I pray you get a Swiss F-18 in the coming patch, just so i can see the bitching switch from “we have nOtHiNg” to “wE sTiLl DoN’t HaVe CAS!!!?!??! :(((”

The German Tree has exactly what you should expect them to have prior to the EFT, news at 11!

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The Netherlands is already a French subtree

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Breaking Switzerland up and give the vehicles to different nations would make it impossible for a dedicated Swiss (and Austrian) subtree.

But look at this:
grafik

Grouping European countries into geographical blocks could work, based on Germany, France, Italy and Sweden (and UK a bit special as it has already Subtrees from all over the world, based on former colonies…

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This is a discussion thread, not a suggestion. So it’s pretty much invalid. Until you go through the proper processing and a suggestion mod ends up approving it.

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To be fair most of em left on their terms so from a historical standpoint don’t think there is anyone who’s annoyed by that. Still wish Bob Semple was added. Even if its stats were slightly altered but still mentioned these changes. :D.

Pretty neato.

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its the exact same for france and uk, they both have the exact possible choices as germany.
And benelux brings a lot german stuff to france, so they cant realy complain about germany getting french stuff

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nothing personal, but that is a realy shitty distribution.
You are giving france benelux, spain, portugal and germany switzerland and austria only?
The quality and quantitiy of vehicles here is worlds apart not mentioning how france gonna swim in german leopards and getting diversity while germany is getting no diversity at all realy
and the gian east region for ital

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What the playerbase wants or not is once again, irrelevant. Gaijin saw that France has been underperforming compared to others, and that there are large gaps in their TT, and since developing new vehicles to fill in those gaps takes a long time - subtree it is.

Swiss Hunter was literally needed more in UK tree than German, too. Guess who has zero F&F CAS on a platform with flares at 9.7?

Guess how many jets did Germany have at 9.7 with F&F A-to-G & flares before the Hunter had been added? Zero.

Incorrect. Swiss Mirage variants and F/A-18 variants are not needed in German tree.

And how do you know the F/A-18C is not needed when you, to remind you once again, haven’t played Germany at top BRs? Your paragraph is void of any logic and reason.

Boy ain’t it great how that’s no longer the top German MBT anymore? Just sweep that under the rug, clearly not relevant.

It sure it painful to be the only person in this discussion to have played the tanks the argument’s about, and to have played top tier back when the 2A6 was added, and when it stopped being the “top dog” (its “stomping” period lasted for ± 4 months), and that its dominance lasted thanks due to FOTM effect (gee, guess what’ll happen when you give the best players in the game the best shell), then, of course, WRs stabilised for a while as they nearly always do in such situations. Not like experience is an important factor when it comes to making a correct statements after all.

Unless you’re trying to tell me 2A6 has remained the “best” tank ever since its addition, despite M1A2 SEP being added (which is honestly better), the BVM of course too. Oh wait, I think we’ve forgotten about something here… Strv 122s? Yeah.

M1A2 turret is the weakest of the strong nato turrets and can be penetrated by DM53 with only a slight angle.

Oh noooo

Spoiler

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Oh nooo

Spoiler

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Not like that’s a common weakpoint shared by most NATO designs…

Plus, ignoring the fact that out of literally every single MBT in terms of armor aside from the improved versions of the Leopard 2A5, that turret is the outright best in the entire game.

NATO tank has a strong turret that gets weaker the more off-centre you’re looking at it, more news at 11 PM.

Please do tell me how the Type 10, Ariete, and Leclerc turrets are even in the same ballpark as the Leopard 2A5 turret.

I’ll refrain seeing as you have to resort to changing the goalpost in order to paint the 2A6 as an “oppressor”.

But hey, it’s fine if we just ignore the fact some of the vehicles you’ve talked about also have better hulls than the 2A6… or how they have better reloads, are faster, have better sights, no no. It’s important to focus on just one thing and complain about it until the opposite party gives out :p

Oh, just like the Swiss F/A-18 variants you demand?

Hard to “demand” something when you know it’s literally coming, try that with the Gripen C that the Swiss might have leased instead, maybe then will your allegations towards me be more correct…

and before I forget, you should learn what a logical fallacy is before accusing someone of it. Especially when you falsely give someone guff about a strawman when you start with Ad Hominem.

Am I meant to laugh at how uninformed this paragraph is? Because this is the first time that I’m hearing of logical fallacies all being grouped up like this even though they differ a lot. Even your use of the Ad Hominem fallacy is incorrect. Your denial of having committed a strawman fallacy is quite telling in all honesty.

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Ad Hominem: arguments directed against a person rather than their argument.

Your argument: you don’t have firsthand experience with germany at high BR therefore shouldn’t comment (despite the fact that the experience of facing Germany at high BR/squadding with germany players at high BR/having friends who play german high BR is more than sufficient experience)

This is literally 6th grade literature class stuff, man.

Strawmanning is also something different to what you think it is. Had I suggested “oh so that means all discussion on German vehicles must be locked behind 11.7 BR leopard tanks” that’s strawmanning.

Are you the type to tell a prosecutor in court they can’t argue on the behalf of the plaintiff because they weren’t present at the crime scene? Serious question. I’m curious.

Oh boy, a real question!

You’re crying for more top BR CAS and A2A fighters!

Guess what your favorite tree is guaranteed to get soon? A top BR fighter specializing in A2A!

How about that top CAS? Guess you’ll have to wait a little while, because the Swiss F/A-18 is A2A only until very late modifications re-enabled ground attack! Guess you’ll have to wait an update or two for them to add early F/A-18 variants before they move on to the later ones!

Later updates that likely will include later variants of… you guessed it, the EF2000 with ground attack options! Hooray!

Bloody hell, do you actually believe the Leclerc, Ariete, Merkava, CR2, Type 99, Type 10 and M1A2 have better hulls than the Leopard 2A5? That’s a laugh! Half of them have literally no armor below the top of their tracks!

2S38 loading APHE can punch through a third of those above. With APFSDS it gets the ability to punch through everyone’s lower plate aside from the M1A2, which has its own problem in the form of a gargantuan turret ring with some of the worst armor at top BR.

But hey, sure. Leopard 2A6 hull is also vulnerable to the 2S38’s dart. If you shoot the weakpoint right at the bottom of the tank, or gamble with the absolutely miniscule turret ring.

Have you ever heard of a little thing called Symmetry?

Crazy how the Leopard 2A5 turret is equally armored to a 60 degree angle along the front, while the M1A2 front turret is significantly weaker on the Gunner side of the turret.

Addressed previously with “Literal swede bias”.

Goalposts flying at 500 km/h. You gotta stop being a hypocrite.

1 Like
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Ngl it’s sort of the only option if we aren’t going to get a good CAS let us at least get a good air to air fighter, the ICE is barely holding its place against F-16,15, Su-27 and Grepins; i believe everyone can wait for the EF2000 to get good CAS plus with the Swiss F/A-18 we will have a good option to grind the EF2000 when it come to game

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Congratulations, and it’s an argument directed at your lack of experience with the things that are being discussed (so basically, I’m questioning your creditability), that is not an Ad Hominem fallacy, that’s an actual observation that logically leads to a conclusion that if A doesn’t have B, its opinion is less relevant (I never said you shouldn’t be talking about this either, so you fell victim to the false cause fallacy as well…)

This is literally 6th grade literature class stuff, man.

Why have you failed to properly use it then?

Strawmanning is also something different to what you think it is. Had I suggested “oh so that means all discussion on German vehicles must be locked behind 11.7 BR leopard tanks” that’s strawmanning.

No, a strawman fallacy means that you’ve distorted what I had actually said, which you have.

Guess what your favorite tree is guaranteed to get soon? A top BR fighter specializing in A2A!

And how do you know it will get it “soon”?

Bloody hell, do you actually believe the Leclerc, Ariete, Merkava, CR2, Type 99, Type 10 and M1A2 have better hulls than the Leopard 2A5? That’s a laugh! Half of them have literally no armor below the top of their tracks!

Generally, some of them do (as I have already said). M1A2 & Type 99 to name a few, Chally 2 could also be added to this list based on the fact its protected parts are about a large as 2A5s but offer a higher KE number. Relatively speaking however, none of them have any sort of hull protection due to the existence of more powerful shells, but objectively, if we were to pit them against shells from the past, then yes, a number of tanks do in fact have better protected hulls than the 2A5.

M1A2s have an actually better upper plate, and their lower plate has a lower surface area than Leopard 2s mid and low plates. So while yea, the middle section on the Leopard 2A5+ hulls is indeed better protected than M1A2s lower, it also packs a halfly unarmoured lower plate which btw, can also be penetrated by 2S38s APHE :)

But hey, sure. Leopard 2A6 hull is also vulnerable to the 2S38’s dart. If you shoot the weakpoint right at the bottom of the tank, or gamble with the absolutely miniscule turret ring.

Or the driver hatch, or the gigiantic lower mantlet, or the LFP, or as you yourself said, the turret ring.

Have you ever heard of a little thing called Symmetry ?

Have you? Because based on what you said right below, i’m not really sure…

Crazy how the Leopard 2A5 turret is equally armored to a 60 degree angle along the front, while the M1A2 front turret is significantly weaker on the Gunner side of the turret.

Which it isn’t, the gunner side is weaker than the loader’s.

As a side-note, “massively” lmao:

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If anything, Leo 2s turret have more variable protection levels rather than the M1s which have that relatively uniform, but they’re not symmetric, and from off-centre angles they’re just as easy to perforate as M1s turret is.

Goalposts flying at 500 km/h. You gotta stop being a hypocrite.

You’ve clearly no idea what goalpost stands for and that’s hillarious to me.

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Yes, let’s add a plane which has 0 relations to Germany from a country that has very little military relations to Germany.
Makes sense if you realy think about it.