Sukhoi Su-27/30/33/35/37 Flanker series & Su-34 Fullback - History, Design, Performance & Dissection

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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4318

http://www.vko.ru/oruzhie/istoricheskiy-aspekt-razvitiya-asu-pvo

Spoiler

The DEW Line and the Sage system were an integral part of the NORAD global North American air defense system. The work of the interceptor automated guidance system and the processing of radar information coming from various radars was carried out by AN /FSQ-7 computing complexes on a lamp element base.
The computer system created by IBM was the most cumbersome ever built. The computing complex of two AN/FSQ-7 operating in parallel weighed 250 tons and contained about 60,000 vacuum tubes (49,000 in computers), consuming up to 3 MW of electricity. The computer’s performance was about 75,000 operations per second. A total of 24 AN/FSQ-7 units were built. The AN/FSQ-7 was further developed by the AN/FSQ-8, AN/GPA-37 and AN/FYQ-47 defense data processing systems.
Using lamp computers of this size was a very expensive pleasure, especially since multiple redundancy and duplication were required to maintain the data processing and transmission system, taking into account the low reliability of the first computing systems.

The operation of the upgraded lamp computers continued until the early 80s, they were finally decommissioned after the abandonment of the centralized automated guidance system of the Sage interceptors. After the Sage system was considered obsolete, in the late 70s, the development of the AN/FYQ-93 solid-state combat control system began, based on one Hughes H5118ME main computer and two Hughes HMP-1116 peripheral computers. The operation of the AN/FYQ-93 began in 1983 and lasted until 2006. Unlike the Sage equipment, the new BIUS did not provide automated guidance of interceptors, but only displayed the air situation and broadcast it to other NORAD regional command centers

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No one said this, rather you are using publicized information about the teething issues of one side and the lack thereof information on the other to claim one is superior when the reality is that both had such issues and only one was properly documented.

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Of course, it does not exceed, especially for a decade ahead (see my posts above).
But I meant something else-the F-106 is the only US fighter that was fully integrated into the air defense system, similar to the systems of the USSR/Of Russia.

4322

I posted this document on this forum.
There is a description of the method of firing at a range of 90 km.with the R-27R1 missile…

Spoiler

Снимок экрана 2024-08-03 092545

Even with a good radar, the target must be shot down with something…

  1. The world’s first monopulse PARG-12-BB was installed on the R-40R rocket (tests began August 1968 - February 1970), adopted on February 12, 1971
    Let me remind you that the monopulse homing head began to be installed only starting with the AIM-7M (the beginning of tests in 1977), it was adopted in 1982…
Spoiler

Снимок экрана 2024-08-03 093635

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The toggle switch is large,medium,small. This is for the fuse.
1/3 for Dmax, Dmax=130 km. 1/3*130=43,3 km
This is the maximum radio technical range for capturing the reflected signal

4324

GCI has always been a thing, it being automatic&centralized isn’t a soviet “feature”(look at awacs aswell) but the rigid system it creates. To the extend of GCI flying the fighters/interceptors themselves and even firing the missile themselves.

Though flying the fighters was possible by GCI ON SAGE on interceptor as the f104, f89, f4. SAGE is a 60s thing.

There’s a quite big difference between limits set BY MANUFACTURING DESIGN and issues like reliability. 2 different things, don’t conflate them.

The thing is that there are documents, they talk about the BY DESIGN LIMITS and others about performance. There’s no lack on both of these.

By design after a 90° bank, radar automatically drops lock. Not a thing on awg9, apg65, 63, they always keep the antenna vertical( E field as vertical) due to the type of gymbal(unless commanded to gp to horizontal for air to ground operations on the 63 and 65).

N019 talks about poor returns/clutter when flying at low altitudes. We have reports documentation of the apg66 specifically talking about this how it is limited and effects on it.

N001/N019 due to poor performance under 3km in lookdown are outperformed in range in both MPRF/HPRF by the puny apg-66(MPRF)

Antemna design, we know

In short, you have no clue on all the documentation used for this on both sides and you are assuming and then crying propaganda. No clue on the subject. And clearly no clue in the difference between MANUFACTURING DESIGN and reliability/performance.

This range i don’t know if it is the maximum for missile-mig29 separation or it includes battery life.

There’s no technical range limit you can fire it other than battery life and the ability for the missile to receive radio correction at long ranges from the mig 29, as long as the radar is able to lock the target you can fire it and send the radio corrections. In war thunder the N019 is artificially limited to 60km in locking range.

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Look. It’s specifically states Dz is when it transitions to semiactive homing. 40, 25, 12 km above 1km. (Though there are more condition for the Height thing I haven’t checked).

There is obviously a maximum separation between the mig29/su27 and the missile that the missile can receive radio corrections but I haven’t run a cross it. So possibly the missile’s maximum separation isn’t reached by the missile.

The guy above posted 90km. May be battery life even an above mach 4 closure rate between fighters.

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Well, it depends on the RСS. However, the manual for the missile says that a large target can be captured from 50 km away. The roll limit of 120 degrees for the N019 is also related to the rocket.And not by the radar itself.
Also, don’t forget. What is all the documentation provided for export equipment

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@MiG_23M
image

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You haven’t even read the article on the link that I cited above… Исторический аспект развития АСУ ПВО | Журнал «Воздушно-космическая оборона» (vko.ru)

  1. At the same time, you are referring to the same book about the MiG-29B avionics screenshot from which (about the launch range of 90 km…), I cited above while trying to manipulate information (that is, 90 km. you are not satisfied with this book, but 40 km from the same book suits you)!?..
  2. You lack basic knowledge of air defense systems!.
  3. Besides, you either translate incorrectly or misunderstand what is written there…
    "…This means that the missile guidance of the R-27R1 missile is being carried out using a combined control system containing an autonomous (inertial) system, a command radio control system and a submerged homing system, With the use of such a combined guidance system, the maximum launch range of D, R-27R1 missiles reaches 90 km…
    help_Inertial navigation. Aiming a missile at a target using an inertial navigation system (INS) with coordinate correction based on a signal from a ground tracking station…
  4. Once again, only the F-106 has the ability to aim and launch missiles in automatic mode like our Su-15/Su-15TM/Su-27/Su-27SM/Su-27SM3/Su-35S/Su-57/MiG-23P/MiG-23MLD fighters (in air defense regiments)/MiG-25P/MiG-25PD/MiG-31-all modifications/MiG-29/MiG-29S/MiG-29SMT use the same principle of guidance through Ground-based automated control systems, but with reduced capabilities of Air Force Command Posts…
    Is that clear?
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Yes, it would depend on the pilot to chose correctly. If the pilot chose big, the rcs of the target must be above 20m². But either way, the R27 would switch from. INS/INS+RC at 40km. If he fired at a 5 m² target the seeker wouldn’t be able to lock on it. Though I don’t know for how much time would the seeker look for a target if it it failed initially to do so. There’s a mention of taking a 0.2 second sample when it tries to capture the target.

Most differences are on ECCM rather than system operation which can be seen on schematics sheets if I remember correctly as it was quite a while ago.

The link to the mig29 manual is soviet( for fighter, bomber cruise missile), non export and goes in accordance with what is said on the r27R1
https://pandia.ru/text/77/156/21225.php

I never said 40km is a limit suits and much worse “suit me” as you are claiming. In fact if you use your english well or properly read the translate you are using you can understand that I state and imply that launches above 90 km are completely possible. And it is just limited to battery life and the max distance the missile can receive radio correction between missile/mig29.

I read. Different doctrines in employment of air assets.

Do you have the page of that? Don’t think that combined actually refers to ground control + aircraft. But combination of ins+sahr+radio correction

Yes, f106. Which stopped being a thing in the 70s. No other post 70s fighter has the ground controllers commanding the aircraft directly and firing for them. So the claim of westwrn moving towards soviet style GCI falls apart.

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4329

Well on that manual it gives this

To ensure a given probability of hitting a target under various conditions, the maximum permitted missile launch range in the PPS, calculated in the RLPK on-board computer, is limited to 90, 70 and 30 km, respectively, for a large, medium and small target.

Для обеспечения заданной вероятности поражения цели в различных условиях максимальная разрешенная дальность пуска ракеты в ППС, вычисляемая в БЦВМ РЛПК, ограничена до 90, 70 и 30 км соответственно для большой, средней и малой цели.

Looks theres a limit in displayed Rmax depending on target chosen. I don’t know if the mig 29/su27 would allow the pilot to fire the missile outside that Rmax if it could kinematically hit them( 15km altitude, co alt, mach 4 closure rate)

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Because of the machine translator, you probably misunderstood me…

  1. You will not find a detailed description of the Command radio line “Turquoise” in the public domain, it is still used in some places…
  2. In the screenshot of the page that I cited (text).“…Equipment of command radio control systems, also referred to as radio correction systems.”.it also has a name-(Command control radio line)…
  3. Data on the radio control command line from ground-based automated control systems is first transmitted to the aircraft and only then to the rocket…In the absence of Command radio control equipment on board the aircraft (in case of malfunction or in the absence of data from a ground-based or other automated control system, commands of command radio control systems are formed on board the aircraft.
  4. The functionality of the Radio control Command line system depends on which Command Post the system is connected to (the Command post of an aviation regiment / Division or an Air Defense Command Post of various ranks)…
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More Top Secret F-35 Stealth Fighter Data Given To NATO Members (twz.com)
1.It is known for sure about the F-15 EX that it has a communication line with the F-22 and an extended Link-16…
ADCP II allows you to fully use the capabilities of the AN/APG-82 radar, such as tracking multiple targets, simultaneous operation and provision of extended target designation data.

Next to the ADCP II is the MIDS JTRS radio system, a four–channel radio station designed to broadcast Link 16 data channel signals and up to three additional communication protocols, including on-board network signals. The system connects the F-15EX to other aircraft adapted to the Link 16 protocol.

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Well, actually such a document. Its authenticity is not clear

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Guys how do you play the Su-27SM? I usually, try to stay low and hide behind terrain if I can and ambush enemies with the R-27ER. This usually gets me a kill or two, but falls apart if the enemy is grouped up.

I tried to fly high at 10km and shoot down at planes below me, but even if I can see the their name tag at like 12-16km away, I struggle to lock them up or track them on radar.

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Loadout: 1-2x R-27ER, 2xR-27ET, 4xR-73, 2-3xR-77
30mins fuel

My strategy is to zoom climb 30-35degrees all the way to 10km altitude and immediately fire an R-27ER at the highest and closest target making sure to manually loft the missile as high as possible then breaking lock and stalking the target with TWS (if not then just keep a memory of the target’s contrail). I then maintain a low closure rate to the enemy by slowing myself down either by notching for 5 seconds or just lowering engine power and opening my airbrake to make myself an unappealing target to fire an AMRAAM at and to increase the time to target of any missile already fired towards me. Next I recommit and try to lock the same target I shot at or whatever is I believe is within my R-27ER’s radar cone and changing targets if necessary (if the original target defends). This complicated strategy usually nets me a kill 50% of the time while having enough time to defend against any oncoming AMRAAMs. Remember to not over commit, once you hear the AMRAAMs go pitbull you have around 5-15 seconds to defend depending on how far you believe the AMRAAMs were shot at (you can usually tell because you can see smoke in the air).

After the wave of AMRAAMs are done, I maintain just below contrail altitude and pick off any remaining targets at high altitude with the R-27ET firing them as far as 28km cold (this obviously depends on your altitude and enemy altitude), make sure to loft the missile extremely high when firing long range.

At this point the enemy should be getting within 20km which is within ideal distance of the R-77 and I just play like a rat.

This strategy has gotten me around 2.4k/d (so far)

Read bold characters if TLDR

4335

It’s called a Leading Edge Root Extension because it’s… An extension of the wing root’s leading edge.

4336

So far best option is doing that was done as always - hit the deck, flyby middle point of the map, turn and then look for targets of opportunity (be it people who went for bases or locked-in on engaging your allies).

One piece of advice I can give is not just about Su-27SM, but Flankers in general is to take about 25 minutes of fuel for it gets sluggish with too much and you want to get every bit of performance (especially if you go for aggressive head-ones with firing missiles via HMD)

4337

Stay low, try to use terrain to directly break LOS from the enemy formation. Usually this involves going left but occasionally the terrain favors right on certain maps. Try to sneak within pitbull range of the enemy (~16km) and then ambush people with R-77’s or R-27T’s. Be prepared to immediately go defensive or dive behind a hill/mountain/into a canyon the instant after firing if possible. NATO has a range advantage with their ACM modes with theirs generally supporting 19km range locks while your ACM mode is restricted to 10km locks. You can try to overcome that ACM range difference by using IRST ACM to perform your initial lock and then swap back to radar for the missile lock.

Depending on the map, you might want even less than 25 minute of fuel. Adjust your throttle controls. There is a sensitivity option that impacts how quickly your throttle increases or decreases when you press the button. Decrease that sensitivity so that the throttle moves slower. This makes it easier to set your throttle to ~102% throttle instead of the full 110% throttle. This gives you most of the thrust of full throttle but is noticeably more fuel efficient, so you can get away with carrying less fuel.

4338

I would also suggest not flying faster than mach 1.1.

Being in the transonic region gives the highest instantaneous turn rate to immediately go cold and notch an incoming misisle. You don’t need to find the perfect angle, just turn away and chaff every second until the misisle loses track.

The best tactic with head ons is to fly at a 30 degree crank, lock the target with HMD and fire your misisle at 4-8km from the maximum angle.

Your misisle will track and hit, and if you turn away from the enemy ARH whiel chaffing it is guaranteed to lose track at some point, this is often well beyond 90 degrees so just keep turning away and chaffing.

If you have an enemy launch an ARH or SARH from behind, the opposite is true, you want to turn towards the misisle while chaffing and the missile will lose track

What I often see is people notching correctly, but the missile is following the last known location, so you have to keep turning away to evade the missile.

Meanwhile the biggest advantage of the R77 is high offboresight shots. Which it can perform flawlessly often catching even highly aware enemies by surprise.

The other tactic for low altitude head ons is to fly very low to the ground, and put the intercept point below the ground, it’s tricky and doesn’t work when the enemy shoots from a much higher altitude due to the minimal effect of multipathing.

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