didnt realise the conversation was guns only, in that situation, yeah, I can see the advantage going back to F-15A. But id say more because the F-15A has the better gun right? High volume of fire and better ammo count?
But I wouldnt count the Su-27 out entirely, especially not when we consider the average skill of US pilots in Sim (99% of the times im TKed, its a US pilot. Heck once got TKed by a guy in an F-15A after I defeated 2x Aim-7Ms fired at me and me spamming pings, I just let the third hit me)
But at top tier. I really dont think the Soviet sit at quite as massive of a disadvantage as they oftne claim. Sure R-77 has less range than Aim-120, but R-77 is better at close range. Sure Su-27SM has a buggy radar, but once fixed, probably not so inferior that it cannot be used (heck i’ve been locked on by a Su-27 faster than my Blue Vixen Radar in the Gripen could even find the target even though I could visually see the aircraft coming at me, in the end I risked just using ACM and hoped it wasnt a friendly locking me, so a dodging radar is not soviet only and back then Skyflash DF stood no chance vs R-27ER)
and then the elephant in the room. Su-27SM can carry 4x R73s, 4x R-77, 2x R-27ER AND 2x R-27ET. They have a missile for literally any situation. God I’d love to have that many missile on the Gripen or Tornado F3
Then original Su-27 still holds the advantage of R-27ER vs Aim-7M and the ability to carry more. I feel that makes up for any radar related issues (4x R-73 + 4x R-27ER + 2x R27ET is not a loadout to cry about) , and the idea of having to fight them in something like the Harrier Gr7 is actually quite scary to me. That aircraft is unplayable enough as it is just dealing with Mig-29s (though thankfully they are usually pretty bad)
heck, even the FA2, espeically with all its current issues, that doesnt sound fun to me. (though watching Su-27s stall out and crash at low speed is really funny. 3x kills in a 1v2 vs Mig-29 and a Su-27 in a stock Sea Harrier FA2 (1x kill and 2x Maneuver kills) was really really funny
Its radar isn’t at all a problem, and allows you to detect targets out near 70-80km without issue.
As for the argument that people are incessantly parroting, TWS softlocks are irrelevant and do absolutely nothing for you, except possibly keep track of where an enemy is in your HUD… Which again… Just use your radar…?
With both MiG-29s and Harriers in the mix, there isn’t any reason at all for the Su-27 to be pushed down to 13.0 unless there is a major redesign of the EC brackets.
Once that is fixed… Yeah… its on them. Heck, they’ll probably be the first with an electronic radar, and im guessing that’ll be the next major update anyway.
Yep… Honestly… This is just a classic case of “wait for new sim brackets” F3 vs Mig-29 for an entire year, I doubt a single soviet main was complaining about that. As soon as 14.0s are added (either via a minor top tier decompress or via new aircraft being added). Im sure there will be a 12.3-13.3 bracket and all will be fine for them again. In the meantime. The Mig-23MLD is criminally under BRed and anything that can actually fight it, is at 12.0+
That’s quite possibly the only point I can really understand, and sure, it may be seen as a problem. I personally haven’t had any issues with the scan pattern, because again, there’s no reason to soft-lock anybody for any reason.
If you want passive detection in the Su-27, use IRST. It’s what it was designed for.
I’d chalk it up to a few major updates, if not Q3/4’25. Radar and other sensors need a LOT of love.
The refresh rate on the Su-27 radar is bad enough that the TWS tracks are not very useful. Most of the time you will have to use it in TWS HDN mode and at that point it is worse than the F-14A radar.
F-15A radar lacks TWS but has both PD and PD HDN modes, a 120 degree wide scan mode, a 60 degree mode, and a 30 degree narrow scan mode. PD HDN can detect hot aspect targets beyond 74km and the regular PD mode is useful at around 35km. It also has 3 different ACM modes.
Coupled with the digital RWR and it’s much better for maintain situational awareness at longer distances. I can basically look across the map and see what kind of plane is looking to engage me and plan accordingly or decide to delay the engagement.
Low skill Su-27 will beat most F-15s because of HMD/R-73 aspect.
However even moderately skilled F-15 player can beat highly skilled Su-27 player most of the time.
The F-15A has a better flight model for dogfighting.
This is the only reason that most US mains are afraid of the Su-27 moving down to 13.0
Currently 13.0 matchmaker is so dominant for US side that it’s not even possible to find games that are not just fully mixed. The only thing at 13.0 that is better than the F-15A is the Gripen A.
The original Su-27 does not fight Aim-7Ms on any day of the week. 13.3 never has a day where it is the highest BR. Moving it down to 13.0 would mean that it would face Gripen A, F-15A, and Mirage 2000 CS5 which is an entirely fair fight.
Plenty of people were complaining about Britain not having a viable top tier plane for a very long time.
USSR not having a viable 13.0 means that less people play Red side and the bracket devolves into pure USA stompfest (which has been the sim norm for over a year).
Making the game into USA Handholding Simulator has a negative impact on USA players to actually find games to play in.
The Ja-37 is at the same BR as the MLD. So is the F5E. The Mirage F1C and A-10C are 1 BR step above the MLD.
Heck, the F4E is 2 steps below the MLD and I have had good luck killing MLDs with that thing.
Sure you can argue that it is under-tiered. It gets one day of the week where it shines. USA has by far the most amount of planes that are criminally under-tiered.
AIm-9Ps vs R-60Ms
Skyflash DFs vs R-24s
48 LCMs vs 60 LCMs
Has no IFF and relatively weak rear aspect IR missiles only (and only 2 of them)
Spends 50% of its time on the same team as the MLD
If you are being killed by an A-10C in a Mig-23MLD that is a major skill issue
Id argue that it actually gets 3/4 rotations. It is imo, the second strongest jet at 11.7 behind the Mirage F1C-200. So it gets R1 and R4 at 11.7 and R2 at 11.3 where it can comfortable dominate most aircraft. But quite a few 11.3s and even a few 11.7s are forced to always fight the MLD without reprieve. Like the Tornado Gr1, Sea Harrier FRS1 Kfir Canard, heck Id also include the AMX A-1A if it wasnt always paired with the MLD. Which is really unfair. Either it shouldnt have moved down or a LOT of 11.3s should be at 11.0
90% of Bluefors 11.3/11.7 line up is ground attackers with most actual fighters meant to fight the MLD at 12.0 or higher
It would be like putting the Tornado F3 at 11.7 just because it doesnt turn well. its kinda insane the MLD moved down
congratulations. This doesnt just affect the Su-27SM. This also affects the Tornado F3 Late and F4 which has a major disadvantage vs even something like the Su-27SM, let alone the F-15Cs or Gripen Cs. Soviets are not the only ones affected by the lack of 13.3 bracket, much in the same way, many nations were screwed by the lack of 11.7 bracket for the entirety of 2023 or the lack of a 12.3 bracket right now. harrier Gr7 forced to be at 12.7 rather sucks and also halves the brackets where Tornado F3 might be viable as it instead fights 12.7s or 13.0s and that is too big of a leap for it. At least with its current CMs
Even if you were to use the TWS mode to softlock an enemy, what use would it have?
You imply that its bad refresh rate would be useful if it were better… What would you use it for?
The F-14A has a legitimate purpose for soft-locks. The Su-27 doesn’t.
So… It has the same modes as the Su-27 with far less functionality… Got it.
Oh my! 3 different ACM modes?
Too bad HMD entirely trumps that…
What it loses in offense it gains in defense… Great.
Because it would be largely unfair and VERY dominant when it comes to 12.0/12.3 aircraft it would face.
Why would it need to lower to 13.0 in the first place?
I’d put the AV-8B+ above both, given its radar, larger range of RWR contacts, and general multirole ability.
Also the possibility of an HMCS in the future… Not too sure on the feasibility of it being added, though it is possible for it to be integrated into the 8B+.
It shouldn’t.
Good point there, it would populate lower brackets quite well.
